Though I come from a purely PHP background on the web development side of programming, I have also spent much time with C# and C++ on the desktop.
I don't really want to spark any flame wars, but:
When should you use scripting languages over compiled languages for website development?
(and vice versa)
Just to clarify, for the sake of this question, I define a "scripting language" to mean an interpreted language like PHP, Python, or Ruby, and a "compiled language" to mean a strongly typed, compiled language like C#, C++, Java, or VB.
It depends :-)
On...
...where and how you want to deploy the application
...the skillsets of the engineers in your organization
...what third-party components you want to integrate with or incorporate
Deployment
If you need to be able to deploy the solution on any of dozens of different possible platforms, you may find that you're better off with PHP than Java (for example). There are hundreds of thousands of Java hosting providers out there, but there are probably millions of PHP hosting providers. (And I say this as a Java-head who finds PHP "so so" at best.)
This goes to OS as well. Mono aside, .Net stuff is going to limit you to Windows-based deployment (or lagging behind the cutting edge and having to very, very rigorously test each and every 3rd party component you bring in, to ensure that it doesn't have Mono...issues).
Skillsets
Coming up to speed in an environment or language is non-trivial. For most of us, picking up the basics is pretty quick, but you may not be making the best architectural/design decisions because you're (comparatively) weak on the environment/language. Skillsets count.
Related to this: Skillset hiring counts. Is it easier (and/or cheaper) to hire PHP devs with 3-4 years of experience, or Java devs with 3-4 years of experience, or C# devs, or...?
Buying/finding/integrating vs. building
In your target area of development, which server-side components or packages will you want to integrate with? PHP has a vast array of things available for it, as does Java, as does C# or ASP.Net. But they're different things (by and large), so you'll want to look at what you actually want to use.
Conclusion
So I think it's less a matter of compiled vs. scripted (in today's world), and more a matter of what's the best fit by other criteria for what you're trying to do.
Addendum: Both/And
And of course, there's always "both/and". For instance, I do work in two main, unrelated environments right now, both using a combination of scripted and compiled resources. (One of them is Java + JavaScript via Rhino on Tomcat, the other is compiled COM objects + JScript [again, server-side] on IIS.)
A programmer can write good/bad fast/slow scalable/unscable code in any language. Although, some language and technologies make it harder to do. In my experience, with scripting languages you can produce a small to medium scale application faster than you can with compiled languages like Java. However, as applications grow in size, compiled languages become more suited to the task I think this comes from strongly typing objects, deeper layers of architecture to manage tasks, and more QA frameworks to verify things are running as they should be as changes occur.
I find it to be mostly a matter of opinion. At first I hated the pre-compiled web applications asp.net provides, but I've gotten used to it so I don't hate it anymore. It has advantages and disantages:
Pro
pre-compiled web applications are easy to deploy, often you'll only have to update the bin-directory
pre-compiled web applications perform well
you don't have to upload source code, which is nice imho.
Con
updating a pre-compiled web app generally means the web application is reset, so unless you've changed the session state, it'll end all sessions and log everyone out
rebuilding a large web application can take some time, which is added to the time it took you to write the changes in the first place. I am sometimes impatient.
I've always liked how easy it is to just update one file in a PHP project without having to rebuild a project or something like that, on the other hand, .net has a nice IDE that allows you to debug everying, from back end (C#, VB.net) to front end (Javascript), in one package.
But again; both have advantages and disadvantages.
I wouldn't draw such a sharp distinction between compiled and interpreted languages - this is really just an implementation detail, and tends to change with time (faster than the languages themselves change.) Case in point - thanks to Facebook, PHP is now a "compiled language" too. Another case in point - I enjoy web development with Scheme - and my preferred Scheme implementation now runs a VM and in that sense is at least as compiled as Java is.
So I think the issues to focus on are the expressiveness of the language, its performance, and its ease of deployment - compiled vs. interpreted is only important insofar as it relates to these things.
I'm a big fan of compiled languages everywhere, if for nothing more than the static typing. On the other hand, scripting languages are very convenient -- no binaries to deal with, only text files, which is a big win for web servers.
In the end, it doesn't really matter -- use whatever language you know and feel most comfortable with for the job.
I think that speed is a key concern in a web application, in particular
how fast is it to write my code
how fast is it to fix my code
how fast is it to refactor my code
how fast is it to test my code
That is, I am concerned about the speed of the slowest link: myself. Anything else is fast enough for Twitter-like loads.
Today, the number one on my evaluation list for a new project would be Tornado and Python.
If I had a choice of platforms, of course.
Ah, Python is among the fastest in scripting languages.
For scripting languages, anyone that has a copy of your software could potentially modify your source code because it's open source.
For programming languages, anyone that has a copy the software cannot simply modify your source code because it is compiled.
So I guess, it depends upon your preferences.
Related
What exactly do you call a relatively smallish program/application built on top a larger library/framework?
The small program (foo) in question does a whole lot but much of the heavy lifting is done by the library (bar) on top of which this program is built. When I say that I designed/developed 'foo' with such and such capabilities I do not want to convey the wrong idea that I coded everything, including the low level stuff, all by myself.
Edit: Just to clarify, this is a numerical code built on top of a numerical library.
TL;DR, almost nobody is going to think you invented everything. If they do, it's a good opportunity to educate them high-level information about computers and software architecture.
In general, this is just an application, utility, or tool. Your runtime context may throw in additional adjectives (e.g. command-line tool, web application, etc).
I think your worries regarding attribution are probably unfounded. If your project is open source, your documentation will certainly need to list the build and runtime dependencies. If there are different licenses, you'll likely also have to ship those with your tool. So it's unlikely that anyone other than people entirely unfamiliar with software engineering would get the "wrong idea".
Furthermore, nearly every software package is built on top of some sort of toolkit. For example, even basic utilities like ls, cp, etc. are built on top of the standard C library and make use of system calls provided by the operating system. Indeed, without the OS, such utilities have no runtime environment in which to execute. The OS has nothing to do if there is no hardware for it to manage (and even some of that hardware is likely to have firmware -- which is just software-on-chip -- to control some of its behavior regardless of an operating system).
The higher up the stack you move, the harder it becomes for someone to mistake the work you did versus the work you built upon. A web application needs an HTTP server, possibly a module interface or CGI environment, a language to express the intent of the software, etc. And then all of this is built on top of the OS, which goes down to hardware, some firmware, etc.
Finally, even if the library does the heavy lifting, that doesn't detract from the value of your software. If your software does a number of very useful things, it doesn't matter whether the library enabled your software to do those things. Some of the most important inventions in history are super simple in retrospect. It just took someone to see how to combine the parts in a different way. This is effectively what we do with software.
If someone does seem to get the wrong idea, this is perhaps a good time to educate them about the complexities of computing environments, the interrelationships between software components, the software stack, etc. It also might be fine to just let it slide and say, "Thank you!"
Our business currently revolves around the development of a library, which can be used in a wide spectrum of industries (desktop, mobile, web and embedded). At the moment we only have customers within the desktop and web world and we already see that we are basically having to duplicate our code across multiple languages (c#, java and c++). How is this typically managed in other companies, do we really have to settle for having our middleware written in multiple languages to meet very different industries.
We have tried c# interop along with with java jni but the results where not as good as we had expected and it didn't seem like a good and professional solution.
Anyone have any ideas how we could keep the core in a single language but develop interfaces in different languages allowing for the different industries.
I have not a lot of ideas when it comes to industry, but I guess that the problem is similar to other not-so-strict scenarios. It is unclear also what do you mean by "middleware". Anyway, I would souggest you to not duplicate code and effectively have, if needed, multiple interfaces to the other languages.
In an ideal scenario, it would be very convenient to have one isolated process with your application logic, written in whatever language you feel more comfortable, and have this process to communicate using some inter-process-communication mechanisms (e.g., pipes, sockets, shared memory, files) with thin client-libraries which could be use by the clients in the other languages. That way, you are forced to create a very clean communication/usage protocol and to have some separation of concerns (because all the communication has to be serialized); you gain in robustness (a fatal error in your application process or in your client does not necessarily means a crash in the other one) and you don't have to use ffi mechanisms, but rather things like sockets and pipes. Even more, if you decide to publish your comm. protocol, then third party developers can create wrappers in their exotic predilect language without need of direct linking/importing to your development components.
This kind of paradigm has been in use with success over the years in the unix world and softwares like Mathematica . In a similar move, the developers of java have made the java plugin to work out-of-browser, in a separated process, to reduce interop complexity.
Ah, I forgot, maybe you may use this: ICE (http://www.zeroc.com/overview.html). It is probably the lighter interop layer that you can use to communicate in a clean way java, c++, c#, python and a few others. They even have some embedding solution...
Pick common denominator standards: REST or SOAP/XML over HTTP can be consumed by a lot of languages, including both Java and C#.
You'll be saddled with heavyweight WS-* standards and lots of network latency, but if interoperability is your goal this is one way to achieve it.
Might take a look at the Haxe language. It "compiles" to a dozen other languages.
https://haxe.org/
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I want to write an open-source tool for use by developers. I want to eliminate entry barriers, so if they like the idea, they just get the tool and start playing with it.
In particular, I don't want an "Oh, should I also install 200Mb of ThatLanguage runtime libraries? Oh, so they don't build on my latest version of Linux?" entry barrier.
Should I write this tool in C, then? Or is Python, or Java, or whatever, already sufficiently widespread to not worry about this sort of things altogether (everyone already has them installed)?
Well, of course I know that they are freaking hugely widespread, but still - are there any major benefits to writing a super-lightweight zero-dependency tool, or am I being too much of a perfectionist?
Just write it first. If it is worth it people will use it.
Beyond that, (almost) everyone has Java, Python, and Ruby installed (especially devs). Some languages are still esoteric enough that it might not be worth it for 'that one app' (erlang, haskell, etc.).
Just write it though, that's the important part. From there it can be ported, rewritten, adopted, but none of that can happen if the tool isn't written first.
It won't help if people don't know C.
If you write your own DSL, you can have people use that API and not worry about which language you choose.
Write it in whatever common language you like. Everybody has installed .NET framework or JVM. The only difference between your C approach and Java or C# is, that you would link additional libraries directly to your program (opposed to standard libraries).
On the other hand I would hesitate to write it in some exotic language, for example smalltalk, because normal user does not know what is it squak or smalltalk itself and could be worried about installing the wierd thing :-).
I also think, that you should be concerned more about developers, because you write, you want it to be open source. I dont know anyone, who wants to write his own Swing, Spring or any other framework just to be independent of something. Also its (usually) much faster and easier to write it in JIT Language, than to code it in assembler...
I'm going to suggest what Reese suggested but take a slightly different approach: write it first, preferably in a language that allows you to quickly prototype and develop your program. Then, and this is the most important part, document the protocal you've developed.
I'm giving this advice because you mentioned that your "application" may later have bindings in lots of different languages and it is a client/server architecture. Well, two of the biggest applications in the world started out like this.
Bittorrent started out as Python code. This allowed very quick prototyping of the concept to get it working. The main thing that it had going for it was that the original code was well written and well documented. This later on allowed other people to port the protocol to other languages.
HTTP and HTML is an even bigger success story and started out with an even less popular language at the time it was written: objective-C. Even better than bittorrent, the protocol itself is very simple and very well documented. People didn't care that the original implementation was in a language that they've never seen before that uses square brackets in strange ways on a NeXT cube. The concept and execution was good and people quickly ported it to their favourite programming languages. Again, objective-C was chosen to aid in quick prototyping. Legend has it that the original implementation was written in just a couple of days.
I would say yes, you have to write it in C. If it were written in any language other than C (except perhaps C++ or Perl), I would definitely stop to consider whether the necessary build tools, runtime tools, and/or interpreter for that language would be available everywhere I might need the tool before getting myself dependent upon it. If the tool were meant for use in build scripts, I would consider it a complete show-stopper, since I can't expect anyone who wants to build my software to have random arbitrary language environments installed.
The reason I mentioned C++ and Perl as exceptions is that they're both largely portable in a formal sense. They have implementations that work without significant ties to the host implementation, and can be built not just on any current popular system but on any system that remotely adheres to standards. Python is quite the opposite, with strong dependencies on the underlying system's dynamic loader; I've been completely unable to get Python to work on various systems that only support static linking.
ocaml is another possible choice that has a very portable implementation, but it's not widely installed and people who aren't familiar with it tend to frown on it for no good reason.
If you write your program in C, then you will have the dependency of the platform (Windows != Linux != AIX, etc). If you are talking only about writing this tool for one OS, or rather THE OS (Linux;-), then I think that you can have a reasonable amount of confidence that your app will work on almost any system, especially if you use an Open Source language. If you want to run the app on Windows, I wouldn't count on any of those languages being installed on the host system. Your highest confidence across platforms will be with Java.
If possible you could use the lightest weight framework possible and put it online, where it can be viewed in a browser. What does your app do? Would it work as a web app?
I would suggest go for Delphi. If you want to make it portable, you can do it since most of the Delphi code is kylix compatible.
Somebody please re-tag with appropriate tags
Hello,
This is my story but I guess it holds true for all programmers.
We begin programming with some simple Hello World program. We practice & add functions/classes to the program. But they still maintain the Hello World style. function calling some other functions standard library.
But when it comes to real world projects(I'm just familiar with OpenSource). Lot more other things come into picture. Then begins the hardships of this newbie programmer.
Project Flow:
Program is not running as expected. Make use of Debugger
Making use of third party libraries. Today, we have
library in every popular language for
almost everything we need.
Multiple persons working on same project. Using Version Control
Systems.
Project is growing big. Build Automation
Lot of people started using your application. You need to port it to
different platforms (operating
systems/architectures). Need for
Cross Compiliation
I don't know why but we need Unit Testing Framework and/or unit tests
What else???
The problem in this is the lack of knowledge of this newbie programmer about existence of these things.
What I mean is when I started looking into some real world projects(Opensource). I didn't know what is this? and why we need to do this?
$./configure
$make
$make install
Recently I became aware of the keyword "Build Automation". I was in need of some library which was available for linux but I needed it in windows. I didn't know that its called "Cross compilation" and tools like MinGW/MSYS exist for this purpose. I had to learn these things in the hard way. I wish some one has told me about existence of such things. That would have saved my lot of time.
Today I ran into performance problem and was feeling the need for something. I guess the thing I'm looking for is Profiler. Thanks to my involvement in opensource projects. Even though I didn't realized/felt the need for this, I'm aware of term Unit Testing.
Though this (hard)way of learning things has some big advantages like now, I'm able to figure out solution or some unknown thing very quickly & unlike my other friends I don't get struck at any point. But I hate the wastage of time involved. You do not believe how much I time I wasted in figuring out the Makefiles & Gnu Build System
So, what am I looking for this in this post?
Please complete the Project Flow. I want to see what all things are involved.
For each of the tasks in the Project Flow list. I want to see following information.
Most popular solutions/tools availabe.
Wikipedia list to all alternatives.
[optional] Suggest some good books/tutorials/guides for learning about this. Or link to relavent SO posts/tags.
I know somethings are language & OS specific. I would say we have only handful of major platforms Linux/Unix, Windows, Java, .NET and handful of major languages C, C++, Java, .NET, Python. Address these languages. Its more than sufficient.
Example:
Making use of libraries:
Libraries are distributed in any of the following forms
Source Distrubtion
Static Libraries(*.lib for windows / *.a for linux)
Dynamic Libraries (.dll for windows /.so for linux)
.NET assemblies
I don't know about java
Resources (Now, once I know the above info. I can search on my own for resources)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_(computing)
How To Write Shared Libraries
http://www.tenouk.com/ModuleBB.html
Note:
Please not that I'm not asking to suggest info on how to learn each of these things. I'm asking about what more such kind of things are involved and alternatives for each of them.
Your question seems to be too broad, but in comments you asked for examples of different methods. This would at least enable you to find some other pointers and make your own decisions.
Rational Unified Process (RUP)/Unified Process (UP)
eXtreme Programming (XP)
Scrum
Test Driven Development (TDD)/Behaviour Driven Development (BDD)
Lean Software development
Kanban
Feature Driven Development (FDD)
Those and many more are software development methods, which comprise of different principles, processes and roles. Most of them also come with some sets of practices for different purposes, e.g. ones you mention in your question. Those are quite widely used in real world, although many companies use different combinations and also some own processes and methods. What is not part of what is used so widely, but might give you some interesting views on development are formal methods, which are precise, but most of the time too unpractical.
I've taken courses, studied, and even developed a little by myself, but so far, i've only worked with Microsoft technologies, and until now I have no problems with it.
I recently got a job in a Microsoft gold partner company for development in C#, VB.net and asp.net.
I'd like tips on how to diversify, learning technologies other than those from Microsoft. Not necessarely for finding another job, I think my job just fits me for my current interests. I think that by learning by myself other languages, frameworks, databases.. I may become a better programmer as a whole and (maybe) at the end of it all having more options of job opportunities, choosing what i'm going to be working with.
What should I start with? how should I do it?
If you're comfortable with C# and VB, learn a language that uses different paradigms. The usual suspects would be Ruby, Erlang, Haskell, Lisp. All of these are available for Windows and other platforms. You might have to get used to different tools to interact with them but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
At the risk of sounding trite, why not install some variant of Linux on a cheap desktop? The mere act of setting up a Linux box is educational.
Once you find your way around it, do some shell scripting and install things like a web server. That should keep you busy for a while. Once you past that, play with some dynamic languages like perl, ruby, python, PHP, etc.
If you're interested in other languages, just pick one and away you go. You sound like you have enough experience to be apt in another language.
If you're looking into a new desktop-development-language then I'd recommend Java or Python, both of which you'd ease into with your C# and VB.NET experience.
If you're looking into web programming, go for PHP?
Browse some source
examples and see what catches your
eye as the most interesting.
Pick up a book on that language.
Ideally, one should know at least one example from each of the major "paradigms":
Assembly (nowadays a dying art, and not that useful)
plain C
one of the OO-variants of C (C++, objective C)
Java or C# (they are very similar, probably no need to learn both)
a scripting language like Ruby or Perl
Javascript (preferrably via Crockford's book)
a non-pure functional language, e.g Scheme (PLT Scheme is a nice learning environment)
a pure-functionalal language like Haskell or OCAML
Erlang (somewhat of a class of its own)
a mathematical/statistical language like R, or J (an APL-successor)
Microsoft technologies aren't bad to start with. My advice would be:
Make sure you aquire sound knowledge about the foundations of programming and the technologies you use. The more basics you know, the more independent you'll be from the latest fads:
Read "Windows Internals" to understand the operating system you're working with. In the process, you will understand other operating systems a lot better.
Toy around with other languages. Learn the differences between statically-typed languages and duct-type languages, functional programming languages, iterative programming languages whatever.
Learn the language you use the best you can. Become John Skeet!
In other words, don't move sideways first. Dig deeper and become better at understanding what you do.
It would be a nice idea to get associated with one the open source programm on http://sf.net. That way you can even have your learning for new platform and also produce some legitimate code. Also you get to look at some good coding practices. Last but not least some giving back to the software community
Maybe think of a project that would be of use to you in your daily life and see if you could develop that in a suitable language. That way you have a goal and at the end of the project you have something useful.
Alternatively why not try learing something not directly programming related, project management might be of use for future roles or do some reading about the history of technology.
These won't add any new languages to your CV but they might add some different aspects to your thinking that might make you a more well rounded potential employee.
I see two main directions to go:
Specific technologies. Select these depending upon how you want to extend yourself, new language (perhaps scripting if you haven't done that, perhaps functional programming), or new techniques (for example, UI programming, or low-level network programming depending upon what you haven't already done), or new OS (Linux if you're a Windows person).
Or, look at higher level problems, for example Design Methods and Team organisation. Read books such as Brooks' Mythical Man Month and Beck's Extreme Pogramming. Consider how to deal with problems bigger that can be solved by one person. Read up on (Rational) Unified Process, UML. Explore revision control systems, Testing techniques, not just Unit Test, but otehr flavours. Think about how you would organise a team if you were the leader. How would the tasks be subdivided, how would communication be managed?