Recently, I have been battling with: weird table borders/margins, div alignments, positioning problems, and am having a down right nightmare supporting Internet Explorer 6. I know a lot of you like me are forced to support, IE6-IE8, Web-Kit, and Mozilla based browsers.
My questions to you are:
What are the important rules you use before hand, when developing across multiple browsers to save you time?
How do you prevent yourself from writing incompatible tags?
What is the best way to avoid hacking your code?
Where do you find research on browser compatibility, do you use any tools?
Finally, when do you cross the line/where do you draw it?
I usually code against Firefox (or Safari) first. That usually produces the best results across browsers other than IE. I then hit IE8, IE7, then finally IE6.
Know what tags are going to cause you trouble and avoid using them at all costs. It's all about how familiar with each browser's issues.
Don't use hacks. Use IE conditional comments. By using conditional comments, you can load one stylesheet for all other browsers, one for IE8, one for IE7, and yet another for IE6 (if you need that kind of granularity to fix your issues). It will give you nice clean stylesheets with as little hack-i-ness as possible.
LitmusApp
There really aren't lines to cross. If you need compatibility, you need compatibility. You just whiddle down your issues as best as you can one at a time until you have something usable.
I would say to start with standards-compliant code. Always test in a standards-compliant browser first like Firefox, or Safari/Chrome. I prefer Firefox for the addons (such as Firebug, HTTPFox and the Web Development Bar). Then work your way DOWN (and by down, I mean all versions of Internet Explorer).
Try to stay away from temporary fixes per situation or site and generalize your code as much as possible. For example, as Justin Neesner said in his answer, using conditional comments and a general style sheet for IE6 , 7, and 8 will knock out most of your problems with layout and formatting, without using (too many) hacks. You can reuse the IE stylesheets, and just place the site-specific code in it.
Use a testing platform like browsershots, netrenderder or LitmusApp so you can see what your site is doing in as many versions of browsers out there. Studying browser compatibility deeply will make you pull your hair out, but any great resource like quirksmode.org can give you information on the little gnats of incompatibility, so you don't go crazy, and bald.
As far as when do I cross/draw the line, it's 99% Internet Explorer issues, and if it's close enough to looking like FF or Chrome/Safari, I'm done. Almost like art, it's not when you're finished adding, it's when you're done removing the crap you don't want to see; that's when you know it's done.
I say there is not that much you can do except sticking to the basics:
Code standards compliant HTML
Validate early, validate often
For Javascript, use a framework like JQuery, Prototype or Dojo
Pick one "main browser" you optimize for first.
in every project, there will be a number of issues, but if you stick to these points, not too many.
I find it extremely helpful to build 100% W3C valid code. Not because it matters - much of what the W3C validator complains about will not make any difference in real world browsers - but because being able to run a validation, and getting a green light and knowing that all is well on that end is very helpful.
To test multiple IE instances at once, you can use IETester. It's not perfect - conditional comments won't work in it for example - , but mostly usable in everyday development work.
use a doctype like html 4.1 transititional which makes ie6 render in standardsmode. You can also use a reset stylesheet.
Use strictly compliant HTML and CSS markup and do not use browser proprietary extensions to CSS.
IE 6 does not implement CSS correctly beginning with its absolute ignorance of the box model.
IE 8 on the other hand has a test suite to prove they implement every aspect of CSS 2.1 correctly (which no other browser does).
Develop for Firefox as stated above and make a decision about supporting IE 6 & 7 or not. Frankly, I no longer develop separate style sheets for those browsers. They don't have enough market share (at least on my site.)
Given the interest in HTML 5 and the lack of interest in XHTML 2, develop HTML 4.01 Strict and follow these practices: (which are recommended in HTML 4, and required in HTML 5 and XHTML 1.1)
all elements and attribute names must appear in lower case,
all attribute values must be quoted,
non-Empty Elements require a closing tag,
no attribute minimization is allowed,
In Strict mode, all inline elements must be contained in a block element.
Why to learn HTML 4.01 Strict with references.
Also see the CSS 2.1 Test Suite
So I have been running around for a while now, 26 days later I think I am ready to give some feedback to my findings.
Coding:
First of all, I found that column systems seem to cut down the amount of HTML and CSS written. They are also very cross-browser friendly. Although there are many of them, I found that the 960 Grid System works the best for me: http://960.gs
Next up I found that Ruby has a cool extension for CSS called, LESS. This has been ported over to .NET and can be found at: http://www.dotlesscss.com. It is easy to setup, and is very powerful when used right.
Javascript, can be tricky but I found out that avoiding certain selectors and shortcuts in languages like JQuery will not only speed up the performance of your application, but exhibit less awkward behavior.
Testing the browsers:
Here comes the interesting part. Without any software I found that testing my applications against Internet Explorer 6 and Safari at the same actually helped increase the speed of my development. Firebug and Firefox actually cause me to develop around the problems and this is what causes a lot of extra code. When developing simple code against IE6 and Safari I found that going back to Firefox and IE8 is incredibly easier. Most problems I have had were with border widths, which were easy fixes.
The best software solution I found that was accessible to me was Expression Web with Superpreview, if you ever wonder why Microsoft releases a bunch of version of IE, its probably so they can sell you tools like these.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents for right now.
Related
I have a Windows 7 with service pack 1, and Internet Explorer 10. And I have my site, http://www.gfcf14greendream.com/ . It looks great on Chrome, Firefox and Safari, but not in Internet Explorer. For starters, I wanted to test how my site looks using IETester, and it's a mess (please compare by clicking the link above):
The thing is, I think that maybe the issue could be that IE8 doesn't load well from <object> tags, is that it? I use three object tags to load the three white parts: header, vertical menu, and "site log" (you can see them here: http://www.gfcf14greendream.com/header.html , http://www.gfcf14greendream.com/verticalmenu.html , http://www.gfcf14greendream.com/thesitelog.html)
To load those three sites, I use the following code:
This one for the header, <object type="text/html" data="http://www.gfcf14greendream.com/header.html" width="100%" height=185></object>
This one for the menu, <object type="text/html" data="http://www.gfcf14greendream.com/verticalmenu.html" height=484 width=100%></object>
And this one for the log, <center><object type="text/html" data="http://www.gfcf14greendream.com/thesitelog.html" height=600 width="90%"></object></center>
Please let me know if anyone has any ideas concerning this "mess". Thank you!!
This isn't a real answer (It's a quick and careless answer at best, so don't take it too seriously)
But I just thought I'd mention that the the W3C markup validator might be useful to you if you don't already know about it.. It catches bad markup practices or errors on your page and can give you more information on how to fix them. At the time of writing, your front page alone has 10 errors and 3 warnings on it. Maybe this could point you in the right direction?
upon a quick skim of your page you don't seem to be utilising CSS properly. That is to say, that I see you are using css but you have elements on your page (use of <center> HTML tags, inline styling and things like that) that go against the grain of why CSS was invented.
If you haven't already seen the CSS zen garden, take a quick read/look at it. It should set you right on why we use CSS instead of tables and alignment tags.
(People sometimes don't get this immediately, but , click the links on the right in the zen garden. The same HTML and page content are completely restyled using one html file and seperate CSS sheets)
Good luck!
Edit:
Oh, I almost forgot to mention that internet explorer 8 doesn't have much (if at all) HTML5 compatibility. If you want to develop websites and web apps in HTML5 you'll be hard pressed to serve your I.E 8 visitors and may end up spending more time fixing bugs than you are developing the content.
Some developers are already boycotting I.E 8 entirely to usher in the new era of the web with HTML5 and CSS 3. There are a few js compatibility libraries out there (like excanvas for the new <canvas> element for example) but they don't work flawlessly and you will eventually have to draw the line somewhere. (lol. canvas.. draw line.. get it?) That being said, i did find this article and this may be useful to you:
turn-on-html5-in-ie8-or-lower
Not every website requires HTML5 and it's new technologies, but if you plan on using it for things like the <canvas> tag, Id suggest (from my own personal opinion) you forget about I.E 8 and concentrate on browsers that utilise it.
Remember that you can make checks in your HTML to see what browser version your visitor is using.
You can see if they are using an incompatible browser, and if so, you can then alert them that their software is out of date and suggest to them alternatives (such as chrome or firefox)
There's a bunch of tutorials on-line about this, here's the first decent looking one I found in a quick Google search this article covers using this technique for seperate CSS sheets but there are others that talk about the problem I mentioned in more depth and I'm sure you can probably figure out how to do it anyway once you read the article.
Either way, I'd say you've got a little bit of reading ahead of you to understand why your humble website does not work in an increasingly obsolete browser.
Again, good luck to you in your future endeavours.
Edit was too harsh:
Having looked a the site I would start by suggesting in future you think about design from a users perspective - the colour scheme you're using isn't very friendly on the eye, the red text against the green is particular troublesome to people with red/green color blindness, you also should consider how your content is presented.
End Edit:
However, regarding your IE issues.
First things first, with any work is getting a firm plan of what you hope to achieve and setting a good groundwork before starting. With HTML that means leveling the playing field with regard to browser quirks, and to achieve that, you use a reset css file.
This ensures that all browsers (as close as possible) behave in more or less the same way, regarding padding, spacing, line heights etc, and can go along way to prevent these sort of problems from happening, and allow you to achieve consitancy.
There's more info at the link below.
http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/css/reset/
Secondly your HTML version - your declaring HTML5 but then use HTML4 values and attributes - basically your site (as pointed out above) is not valid markup.
I am in a collaborative work of generating a website for disabled people, mostly will run on limited number of educational centers-offices that will donate tablets and old-notebooks to attendants. I am telling you this because i want to give you an idea about the possible users and different OS and browsers.
I want to generate CSS code that will be compatible with all possible browsers; older and newer browsers..
I am writing from scratch and i build it by visiting http://browsershots.org/ each time to see if there is any compatibility issues, but it takes time. Also i use http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ but again too many manual work..
What i would like know is: do you happen to know any tool that you feed your CSS file that is compatible with, say IE at the beginning, and hands you the extended version of the CSS file that covers many of the compatibility issues?
Any help is greatly appreciated..
In simple words there is no easy way to generate one CSS for all browsers.
For details, It highly depends a lot of over how extensively are you using the CSS, what version of CSS is that etc plus there are many places where different browser renders same CSS property in different ways, so its not really simple enough for all the situations.
But, for a little help, with the time passing there are different tools and scripts that can make your task of achieving CSS compatibility for all browser easier, I would recommend you go through the following tools they can be useful to you while trying to maintain your CSS.
15+ techniques and tools for cross browser CSS coding
Some CSS-preprocessor/helpers to help you in maintaining your CSS throughout:
Less: The dynamic stylesheet language.
Sass makes CSS fun again.
Compass is an open-source CSS Authoring Framework.
I'm not sure such a tool exists. That said, there are some advices to write cross-browser CSS:
Use a reset stylesheet (e.g. http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/css/reset/);
Use IE conditionnal comments such as <!--[if IE]><![endif]-->;
Practice a continuous coding: open few browsers (e.g. IE, FF, Chrome) and check the run-of-river display they provide;
Use IETester to check IE5.5+ rendering, depending of the IE versions you want to cover;
Use absolute positions and specify widths and heights (especially when using floating elements) whenever you can;
If you want to try CSS3, use PIE;
Try to write pure, simple CSS, avoid exotic layouts.
Netbeans IDE has a feature which helps you to construct CSS from simple tick boxes and drop downs. I haven't confirmed the validity against W3 yet though, but the code generated looks good.
Also a useful resource to check use is http://www.w3schools.com/cssref/default.asp. It does take time to reference the properties you wish to use, but it is always worth confirming their compatibly if your going to experiment with layouts, and a must if using CSS3.
W3 Schools gives a clear indication of which browser supports a stated property. See example image below which is shows the compatibility for box-pack.
This is the first time I will be implementing for IE9 and since I've installed Windows 7 which came with IE9, every site I have checked that we've built has some issues in IE9.
What I'd like to know is:
Is there a way to absolutely use minimal CSS to sort out all three browsers or will there always be the need for conditional css for the different IE versions?
Is there a specific doctype I should be using that will sort a lot of this out?
Many thanks,
James
It depends on your needs and requirements. My personal website has exactly one style sheet that works across all major webbrowsers. But my personal website is very simple.
Nope. But please, do pick and include a doctype. This article explains how it will effect rendering in IE.
1) 8 and 9 are pretty similar, 7 has a few things missing. Yes, you will always have to take into account all 3. This may be by removing any problems with the browser BEFORE you style with a CSS reset, although this doesn't solve everything, or use conditionals.
2) Not really, the browser will automatically select one if one is not defined. Either way, it won't change how the page renders.
The best way to minimise the problems is to use an initial CSS Reset file to bring as many of the differences back into line as possible.
Also, consider using a well established CSS framework such as 960 Grid or Blueprint. This will at least mean you are adopting a well used / contributed to framework which will minimise the cross browser inconsistencies that you are unaware of.
The CSS reset idea is a good one if you are just starting out but will hide differences between browsers that may confuse you later.
The best doctype to use now is <!DOCTYPE html> which puts all browsers into standards mode.
I'm looking for feedback on peoples experiences with developing sites that work across browsers. It seems to me there are at least two obvious ways to approach the task of making your site/webapp work across browser:
Constantly test across all supported browsers every step of the way; or
Pick a browser, get everything working in it as a reference implementation and then make all the other browsers match the reference implementation.
Each approach has an obvious drawback -- the problem with #1 is that you end up doing a lot of unnecessary work -- especially if you are developing a webapp that is going through a lot of iterations/prototyping/spikes etc. You will make a bunch of stuff work across browsers that will subsequently be discarded/removed.
The disadvantage to approach #2 is that while it makes the initial development much quicker and more painful it makes it much harder to figure out where some of the specific errors arose, especially for more complex issues -- whereas if you had been developing for all browsers at once you should catch it right away and know what change(s) introduced the problems.
A somewhat obvious third option would be a hybrid approach, but it seems to me that you would end up losing more by experiencing both of the problems with #1 and #2 than you would gain from the benefits of doing both.
What have you found to be the most effective way(s) to approach this challenge?
I’ve found that if you get too deep into developing a website without looking at other browsers you’ll quickly get to a place that is too much of a headache to debug. I consistently open my web pages in all the browsers I care about.
I strongly suggest you verify all browsers each time you make a large change to the site.
Make it work with all browsers up front. This will mean extra testing during development but will cause you less pain later. I find it's usually easier to diagnose problems if I've just developed the thing, rather than coming back later and trying to figure it out...along with a list of other issues.
It partly depends on whether you know it's going to have to work in all browsers up front. If you do, then you really are better off just making it cross-browser to begin with. You don't need to test that everything is 100% compliant every step of the way, but you should code toward that.
And really, it's not that hard, especially what with JS frameworks like jQuery and Dojo around that take care of the scutwork. If you find yourself continually battling one browser or another, you might want to reconsider your design, as you may have chosen to do things in a way that is inherently more difficult to do when cross-browser compatibility is important.
Well, you do #1, but you do it whilst greating a style guide. A litle bit like this: http://www.sitefromscratch.com/content/html-xhtml-css-testing.
So when designing a new site or design, you create a page containing the desired HTML for all the visual elements that will be used on your site. Ignore style for now, just use the HTML that makes the most sense.
Then you style it. Preferably, your style guide would be all on 1 page so it can be open in each browser you're supporting and all you need to do is hit refresh between changes, (avoid opting for several pages, because it will take you longer to inspect them all).
When you build your site, build from the style guide. If it's not in the style guide, add it and test it there first. If you discover a problem when building the site, (perhaps you didn't consider a particular element when it wrapped, for example), replicate and fix the problem in the style guide.
Here's the killer advantage: A new version of one of your supported browsers is released, what would you prefer to test, your entire site, or the style guide?
So that's the CSS taken care of, now you need to do that all over with your generic JS functions, if any.
I created an interface compatibility layer between the browser and my code - basically, I wrapped certain functionality and made the wrappers determine what javascript/html was needed.
As browsers change, you change this compatibility layer and you can leave the rest of your code alone.
If you have this layer in your architecture, the answer to your question becomes "whenever you want".
If you can get an enterprise lock-in then multiple browser support can become less of an issue, e.g. if your customers are all companies using Internet Explorer then why build the site to look good in Safari or Chrome?
If though you are making something for the general public then there is a hybrid approach I'd use which is that I use one browser to get all the functionality there and working and then test across browsers when I'm in that "pretifying" phase of the project. Initially the key is for it to work, then it has to look good.
I don't think I could see a logic to testing across all browsers as I initially fill out a form or do some other basic functionality as it could be a big productivity drain to test across at least a few browsers, e.g. IE 6 & 7, Firefox 2 and 3, Opera 9.5, Safari, and Chrome if one wants to get all the big boys, and at least a couple O/S as Safari on a Mac can be different than Safari on Windows, which is a lot of tests even for just one or two pages. On the other hand, near the end, this is when I can refactor my CSS and inline styling and make the code better for handing off for someone else to maintain, archive until a service pack project is planned, or keep some documents just in case something has to be done. Also, by waiting to clean things up, I can have more confidence in the final UI parts as these can evolve and change considerably over a short period of time.
I usually start out ensuring that all the HTML and controls that I write/use adhere to the specification.
Tools-->Options-->Text Editor-->HTML-->Validation-->Check Show Errors and choose your Target
This starts me out on a solid base. I functionally test new features in a single browser and then about once/twice a day test the full set of them across all browsers.
Using this approach, CSS and JS are the usual suspects when something isn't right, its rare that it's the actual HTML markup.
If you can do it right the first time. Do it then. It will probably never be right later.
Depends mostly on your experience, which could be applied to any programming activity including this one. If you know in advance what likely pitfalls you're going to have to avoid (eg. in cross-browser development, don't make it hard on yourself by trying to do something that is going to be a hassle in a different browser), then you can probably safely develop everything in one browser and then go in after it's done and tweak things to get it working everywhere.
I usually advise junior developers to keep all browsers open during development and to refresh each browser when making changes, but I myself tend to write everything with Firebug for support and then go back and see how it's doing in IE7 (etc) afterwards. Since I've been doing this for several years, most of the time I can predict what's going to be causing a headache and often immediately know where to look to fix it.
If you are new to Web Design/Development then getting things right in different browsers can be a chore at times.
However, it's really not that hard to get a website working in every major browser and coded towards the W3C standard. In my opinion EVERY designer/developer should do this out of principle, otherwise they are no better than they were in the IE years.
Develop cross-browser code, make sure it validates and never think about designing for one browser again.
I build websites for a small-ish media company. Unfortunately, around 45-50% of our client base uses IE6, while the other half are pretty much equally split between Firefox and Webkit-based browsers, with a sprinkling of Opera users.
I start every one of my sites with a reset stylesheet similar to Eric Meyer's, with a few modificaions. I've been using the Blueprint CSS "framework" a lot recently, and it's made my life a lot easier, though I am not especially attached to it.
Roughly 60% of my development time is spent making sure the sites I create don't look incredibly different in each browser. I code for Firefox 3 then tweak from there.
Does anyone know of any stylesheets/frameworks out there that attempt to preemptively account for all of those stupid little browser quirks? I know that nothing out there can totally account for all the browser weirdness, but it would be nice to have something a little more solid to start with.
I'm working on creating my own, but it would be nice to have something to start with.
The Yahoo YUI library helps deal with a cross browser rendering issues. Namely, the Reset component (http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/reset/) will revert all browser specific rendering (margin and padding on certain elements for instance), creating a level playing field to start from when designing your site.
Take a look at YAML.
Read and inwardly digest Transcending CSS by Andy Clarke, Molly E. Holzschlag, Aaron Gustafson, and Mark Boulton.
It gives a set of techniques for dealing with those quirks you can deal with, and advice on making web sites accessible to older or less capable browsers, or those using other technologies, such as screen readers.
The fundamental thrust is on making sites that degrade gracefully.
It contains lots of links to resources that deal with these issues.
Dean Edwards' IE7 library copes with some of the Internet Explorer quirks.
Blueprint was one of the early appearances in this space, and is considered to be quite mature.
http://code.google.com/p/blueprintcss/
Here's a huge list of available frameworks:
http://www.cssnolanche.com.br/css-frameworks/
There was a lot of interesting debate in the web dev community about css frameworks at the time. Many were worried this violated some stucture/presentation seperation, and introduced non semantic class names and structure.
Some views:
http://jeffcroft.com/blog/2007/nov/17/whats-not-love-about-css-frameworks/
http://playgroundblues.com/posts/2007/aug/10/blueprints-are-not-final/
http://www.markboulton.co.uk/journal/comments/blueprint_a_css_framework/
http://peter.mapledesign.co.uk/weblog/archives/blueprint-semantics-markup-frameworks
Have you looked at the Yahoo YUI stuff? They have a cross-browser CSS Framework.