Related
I have been struggling with an idea for a few weeks and wanted to see if someone can help me out here.
Programming today is full of abstractions, and people who do not understand the abstractions, do not truly understand the reason or design than went into building that abstraction/layer/framework and will struggle as soon as they step outside the comfort zone.
I was wondering if there is a learning resource that goes about teaching programming in an incremental fashion. This will lead to understanding the full stack.
take a small problem
implement a simple solution
talk about the the solution and the designs used
convert the solution into a framework or utility of some sort
now extend the problem space and repeat from step 2.
This way when someone then picks up any framework/library, they can easily visualize the problems the framework is trying to solve, the design decisions taken and the reasons thereof.
[Added to clarify the intent]
Based on the answers and comments below, I want to clarify that I want to move further up the stack. Building your own ORM to understand ORM better, same goes for ActiveRecord, IOC container, data binding, templating engine, and the host of other magic/glue/plumbing we use day-to-day.
Thanks.
Here's what I recommend : Have a brush with assembly (just one book or one month is enough). Have a good strong review of C++ (hopefully it will teach you some of C as well). Now the world is yours. Python is made in C/C++ , Object C is pretty close to c++, .NET is in C++ and C#/VB.NET , The windows API is oriented for C.
I picked C# as my abstract language of choice after this by the way.
Read the source. It is a good idea to build something you want to understand, but you can enhance your understanding of concepts significantly by looking at how something is built. This is especially true for infrastructure pieces (ORM/DI/Templating) which you seem to be interested in.
Get the software to build on your machine, attach a debugger and trace through the code. This is pretty easy for C#/Java with a good IDE. For dynamic languages like Python and Ruby, it takes a good editor and a lot of grepping.
If it is a good software package, it will usually have tests. Tests are a great place to start digging into code. They usually make clear the intent of the code, and also provide you a logical starting point to peel off the layers and actually peek under the hood.
Build a fully functional compiler from scratch in a systems language like C or C++. Maybe it isn't the full stack, but it's a large part of it. This is something I want to do as well. If only I could find the time and space.
The best example of the sort of learning resources I am seeking is the MIX session by Rob Eisenberg on "BUILD YOUR OWN MVVM FRAMEWORK". It goes step by step on explaining the pattern and also implementing it at the same time, attacking one problem area at a time.
http://live.visitmix.com/MIX10/Sessions/EX15
Hope there are more out there.
I learnt swing basics and event handling basics from head first java...
Then i read a few tutorials on swing app development using netbeans...
and i loved it as i don't have to care about layouts and stuff...
But i read in one of the forums, that i should learn swings properly rather than using netbeans directly...
This confused me a bit....
Please suggest the best way to master development of swing apps....
thanks in advance
Well, I see I'm going to run counter to the majority here ;-)
Hand coding GUIs is a pain in the ass. Anything that makes that task easier is a good thing in my book. When you're just starting, having a generated GUI lets you get up and running faster.
GUI builders handle the really repetitive work and prevent you from doing the most common dumb things. The downside is that same approach will also prevent you from doing the really clever things. Eventually, you will encounter something that you cannot do through the GUI builder and you will need to poke into the code. So, you can't treat code generators like black boxes where you don't need to know what magic happens inside. At minimum, you need white boxes. Let the GUI builder do its magic, but understand that magic and its limitations.
Practice by generating a very simple GUI. Walk through the code and understand what it does. Make a change through the builder and see how the generated code changes. Try changing the code yourself to confirm you understanding is correct. *
If you don't understand something, hit the JavaDocs, the Swing Trail, or browse through the Java2S Swing Tutorials.
If you're still stuck try the kind folks at Java Ranch, or here on StackOverflow.
* Netbeans puts the generated code in guarded blocks and will not let you edit them directly. However, you can open the file in another editor to test a change. Also, you can do quite a lot to influence the code generation using the code tab in the properties window.
It depends on what you see as your goal.
There is no "perfect" approach to get comfortable using Java and swing, it always depends on what you want the outcome to be like.
Most enterprises depend on stability and speed, programmers need to write code fast and stable. If you write complex interfaces by hand it gets ugly when it comes to speed and precision at the same time. You can never write better code in terms of "it is working" then the netbeans gui builder can. Also, no one will probably have a look at your code once the application is up and running.
If you want to get to know swing only for the purpose of knowing it with no deeper intention what so ever, I'd recommend learning it by heart without netbeans as you'll probably familiarize yourself with most of it's functionality quicker then the other way around.
On one hand, if I want to learn something, I want to learn it from scratch, so I would probably go with writing swing-code myself and in the end using netbeans to generate it when I am fully able to comprehend what is generated.
On the other hand, if I need to write applications quick and am not paid to go into any details, I'd simply use netbeans.
I think you have answered yourself... you want to master development of swing apps...
everything that you do by autogenerating without knowing why or how is not mastering in my opinion ;)
If you want to be master, then you should at least know how to do it with your bare hands. Moreover, it will also help you if you will use other gui toolkits (main principles of gui toolkits are more or less the same, imho).
I've decided to get some experience working on some project this summer.
Due to local demand on market I would prefer to learn Java (Standard and Enterprise Editions).
But I can't even to conjecture what kind of project to do. Recently I had some ideas about C. With C I could to contribute to huge Linux projects. I don't mean that my work will be surely commited. I could get the code and practice with it. But C it's not right thing to get good job in my area. In case of JavaSE there is a chance to develop some desktop applications. But thinking about JavaEE I get stuck. I'll be very thankful for answers.
CodingBat.com will give you good core Java practice.
Project Euler is still the best for all around practice. You can use whatever language you'd like to solve the problems there.
For actual projects, I almost always start on something easy like a Twitter client. It gets you exposure to all the basics along with UI and network communication. You can work up from there. Just don't start with something so overwhelming that you can't figure it out and want to give up. That's not going to get you anywhere.
The best advice is: work on a project that you have personal interest in. Something based on your hobbies, maybe.
If that doesn't work, make a blogging / CMS engine. Or an online photo album. Or an eStore. The world doesn't really need another of any of these things, but it will give you some good practical experience with JavaEE.
Another benefit of "re-inventing the wheel" (for learning) is that you have probably already used systems like these described above, and you have a good idea of how it can work, and maybe you have your own ideas of how it could work better. That can make requirements much simpler, and also will give you a sort of benchmark so you can see how close you can come to building a tool like the "real" ones out there. And if yours is really great, well, maybe release it and see what happens. ;)
There are many Java-based projects on SourceForge. Tinker with one you find interesting.
I've implemented either a betting pool or a Baccarat game in almost every language I've
learned.
This type of software covers:
Dates and times, with calculations
Currency types and things that can be converted to and from currency.
A discrete set of rules that is easy to test
States, transition between states and multiple entities responsible for state transition
Multiple users with different views of the same model End conditions
Multiple player blackjack and poker would work also.
One caveat is that in my day job I work on financial systems and there is a huge overlap
between things to consider when writing a multiplayer game of chance and a trading system.
build an address book. the concept is simple, so you're not stuck on "what" to write. You can focus on learning your chosen language. You get experience in working with a database, java ( insert any language here), and UI design.
when you decide to learn another language you can create the same thing. Since the database has been created already, you can focus on the language itself.
the concept of inputting data, storing data, and retrieving data is central to a lot of applications.
Have a look around http://openhatch.org/ for a project that sounds interesting.
Closed. This question is opinion-based. It is not currently accepting answers.
Want to improve this question? Update the question so it can be answered with facts and citations by editing this post.
Closed 9 years ago.
Improve this question
I've noticed many questions on here from new programmers that can be solved using libraries. When a library is suggested, often times they respond "I don't want to use X library" Is it the learning curve? or ? Just curious!
A lot of new programmers are still working at a very low level of abstraction, learning the trade. That's something everyone has to go through. It takes a while to "move up the stack" so to speak.
Once programmers realise that they spend most of the time solving the same problems as someone else already did, and the goal is to realise "business value", then they can really appreciate the value a good library brings.
When you're still learning the ins and outs of a new language, also having to learn how to use a 3rd party library can look like too much work. Also, libraries tend to be badly documented - or at least have documentation that seems totally opaque to a new(er) programmer.
So, faced with trying to solve problem X, saying "use a library" can sound a lot like "solve problem Y THEN problem x".
(Also, their professors told them not to. I managed to get all the way though my undergrad in C++ without learning the STL existed. Boy, did THAT cook my noodle.)
Some people, when confronted with a
problem, think “I know, I'll use a
library.” Now they have two
problems.
Seriously - this is a reasonable way for a newbie, already overwhelmed by new language, programming environment, paradigms, keystrokes, etc. to react to the suggestion to use a library. If you've got a solution, but it's not working, there are many potential sources of error; sorting through them is a challenge. Adding to them can seem irrational.
"Use a library" means find the library, download it, install it in your project, and call the necessary function. Not hard, if you're used to it (and there aren't corporate policies against it, and you have reason to trust the vendor, and the library itself has minimal dependencies, etc.). But if it's all new to you, when you ask a programming question and get back a system configuration answer, it can seem unhelpful (even if it is not, in fact).
Almost always it's because their professor has told them that they can't.
Sometimes it's just because they want to learn it themselves, but I'd say that's rare.
It's the learning curve.
Using libraries is probably one of the worst things a learning programmer can do. Instead of learning how to code, they're learning how to use specific APIs that other people implemented. I'm not saying that every programmer has to understand every single thing that they use, but programmers who know the ins and outs of a computer (digital logic, assembling op-codes, etc) usually have an edge over people who've started with something like Java Swing and are just throwing together libraries.
In production, this is a different matter of course. But I think the best course of education is to 'make everything' once, at least. Writing my own web application framework from the ground up really improved my programming skills and abstract abilities. Doesn't mean I'll use that framework if someone hires me to build them an application, but I know the strengths, weaknesses, and reasons behind the things that the 'giant' frameworks use, and it can help me choose a particular framework for a particular situation.
I remember shying away from several libraries simply because I wanted to see if I could create my own algorithm. I didn't want to just give up and let someone do the work for me but rather I wanted to learn from my mistakes. Once I had come up with a solution I was happy with, I looked into the libraries.
So for me it was simply wanting to see if I could do it.
I always have this urge to do it myself, but sometimes I can see my own limitations.
Just recently downloaded a library to create PDF documents, but thats pretty much the only time I can remember.
At least for me, (trying to) do things myself, is my way of learning.
My impression is that many newbie programmers wouldn't consider it their own work if they were to use someone elses libraries.
I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing. Using libraries is great; it saves time, effort, bugs, etc. However, you learn very little in the process, and for new programmers, learning is the goal. To answer the question, I think that they tend to shy way from libraries simply because they are not used to using them and perhaps they don't know that they exist.
For many poorly documented libraries that are either implemented loosely or in languages that don't allow you to control containment and visibility very well, it can be quite difficult to guess just how the library is supposed to be used.
After you've used it for a while, you've gotten used to the quirks or read other source code that taught you the right way; but until then it can be pretty irritating to use a poorly put-together/designed library. (or even a well designed one that isn't terribly well documented).
If you don't have the source code to the library, that's another problem--you have no control over the ability to keep your program working. This is much more rare these days, but still happens in the case of a purchased library.
Most of the points covered off (for me the main one is the learning curve) but one other I think plays a part:
Because learning about a library is less exciting than coding the same functionality yourself.
More libraries = less billable hours.
I think there's a lot of time that needs to be invested in understanding the library's purpose - yes, a learning curve, but it's more that newbie programmers probably don't know what they need until they have a lot more experience.
Because it's fun.
Because part of maturing as a developer is learning to quickly identify problems which can be solved by a library or existing solution and which need personal attention.
When you're trying to learn how to do things, anytime something is accomplished "magically" by calling AwesomeClass.doAwesomeStuff(), you end up giving away a portion of control. When you are "new" and don't know what you're giving away or why it can be unsettling. This was my primary knock against Rails when I was first learning it. So many things just "worked" and I didn't know why without digging through lots of Rails source (which I generally didn't have time to do).
At least, that's my take on it.
The same reason that more experienced developers do -
Because it can often be as difficult to learn how to use a library as to write the part of it you need yourself. And at least then you can understand how it works when it doesn't do what you expect.
An experienced developer just has experience at understanding how to use libraries so more likely to consider it. An inexperienced developer it's one more thing to learn...
I'm a programmer, not a psychologist! :)
It was a long, long time ago for me, but it was because I wanted to learn and experience. I didn't want to use something I did not understand, so if I didn't think I understood the library and could program it myself, I tried not to use it. There might have been a bit of fear too; programming gives you a feeling of control, and using a library is like giving away this control.
Answer from a noob -
"I am not sure how to use the libraries or even how to access them or how it works"
Libraries often come with the overhead of learning some API and it's paradigm. It can get complex fairly quickly, and I could easily understand that beginners would prefer something a bit more in their comfort zone. From my experience, I found most libraries & frameworks seem to do a great job abstracting some tedious routine, but when I need to either extend this functionality, or use it in a way that's not intended, it can be a handful.
I think it's one of those things where "practice makes perfect".
Well, the newbie's purpose might be more solving the problem than implementing a solution. Perhaps what they really want to do is figure out how to solve the problem. I mean, if they're still heavily in the learning phase, it's quite possible they don't want easy answers handed to them.
I think the professors want them to stick to the basics. When I graduated from under-grad school, I knew C++, Java and some other languages but had no clue about libraries and frameworks being used in companies. It was like do you know java..yes..can you write a servlet..no.
For speed demons they rarely use 3rd party libraries and new programmers are usually looking to squeeze every once of speed of of their code. I think if they don't have control over their code they can't get the performance that they are looking for. At least thats why i avoided libraries when I first started to program.
I remember programing my first DAL and avoided all the other free libraries out on the web because I wanted my code to perform at top speed. Later, I discovered that usually its not the code thats the bttleneck its actually the database.
Some open source libraries are buggy or not as efficient as others.
In my eyes another factor is that additional libraries add complexity. Programs tend to get harder to understand, harder to maintain and buggier when getting more complex. I think what makes especially new programmers shy away from libraries is that adding library code increases complexity more than adding your own code - simply because understanding how the library works is still out of their grasp. So it seems to be a problem of both skill and psychology.
I think more fundamental issues can be recognized as a deterrant to using existing libraries.
Part of this as "newbie programmers" is a lack of exposure to libraries. If you don't know they exist, how do you know to use them?
Number Of Options Available. Let's say I'm really interested in learning more about MVC, but if I have to choose between cakephp and smarty and zend and ... well you can quickly see the gears work to discover a way to achieve the goal without investing the time experimenting. Take a look at Freshmeat or SourceForge to get a better understanding at the daunting selection of libraries available.
Questionable support combined with sketchy/outdated documentation for the libraries. Do I want to use this tool that may no longer work or may be abandoned in the future? It is likely that a project will evolve, and so it will for the project of a library too. Will its usefulness last the lifetime of my project or will I be required to re-do this work again?
Using a library requires you to understand the relatively complex design of the library, something that new programmers might not have mastered because all they've ever written is simple/procedural/single-purpose code. For example, to an experienced programmer standard design patterns like template method, observer and command seem pretty obvious, but to a newbie it all just seems like magic and/or unnecessary complexity. For me the turning point was when I got good enough to grok design patterns and write some basic reusable code.
It's been a long time now, but when I came out of college, I knew nothing of libraries. This was in the days of mainframes and mini-computers. Our college had a VAX and the managers were paranoid about students hacking the system, so didn't allow us to even see the library manuals. So, when I first came out of college, I didn't even think of libraries being available.
I am sure there are a lot of reasons why the newbie doesn't want to use the new library. But wouldn't this be a good opportunity, if you have enough time, to show them what the advantage of using the library is? With the people I work with, I will usually provide an example of why something is better than their approach. It helps them learn and mature as a programmer.
Happens that noobs use Libs without knowing, but when they must import/add one that is fairly less documented, there is a fear of unknow. That happens mostly for compiled langs!
In the interpreted, (or compiled IRT), mainly when there is a console, such fear is almost non-existent; since you can require and see if it fails, call a method and see what it returns.
Consoles are tools of bravery !
Closed. This question is opinion-based. It is not currently accepting answers.
Want to improve this question? Update the question so it can be answered with facts and citations by editing this post.
Closed 3 years ago.
Improve this question
I've been coding since my early teenager years. I started out with HTML, went on to PHP/MySQL (created my own forums, social networking sites, etc..) and then branched out into more traditional languages such as Java and C++ (also picked up a little VB .NET in high school). I'm most familiar now with C++ as that is the language of choice taught to us in Computer Science II (skipped Comp Sci I) at RPI. I now feel like I have a very good knowledge of how to program from this class (the homework assignments were brutal).
It is now summer and I am interning at a company that is providing me some level of new experiences with programming, but I want more. I want to feel the incredible satisfaction that I got out of my computer classes at RPI whenever I finished a long assignment (generating every possible wordsearch from a set of words to include and exclude comes to mind).
My question is, where do I go from here? I tried following a tutorials online, but they were all too simple. I then tried heading over to sourceforge and helping out with various projects. But, as soon as I downloaded the code I got lost in its complexity. I have never created actual software of a real life applicapable scale. And I don't know where to get started. How do you transition from programming knowledge to actuall creation of software?
I'm also open to learning new languages (javascript/jQuery, ASP .NET, C#, Python), or using new libraries and/or frameworks with c++ (we only used the STL in Comp Sci II) and other languages. Again my question is, where do I go from here? And I am welcome to all possible answers.
Thanks Much,
Michael
You could join a big open source project, you'll learn a lot and accomplish something cool.
EDIT after comment: If this is too complicated for you, try starting a "real" project. I say "real" because it should be something that you want to do, not a "create a blog" or "how to do a loop". For instance last year I created a fully functional project management system that I now use for some of my projects. If this is real, you will be more motivated and you will want to get this done.
Pick the technology you want for it. I'd recommend Ruby on Rails because it's awesome and full of interesting concepts that will improve the way you code overtime (DRY, RESTful, MVC...)... but you can pick whatever you want.
Try to create your project using what you know and basic tutorials. You will get stuck and have to learn some more in order to get the features you want going. To me that's the best way to improve the way you code and general programming knowledge.
Since you'll start the project from scratch, you'll see where to start and how this will evolve. I'll take the project management tool. We started with "A project has todos" and we ended up with all kind of other features such as a complex calendar, a full ajax interface, a embedded chat...
Once you see how you did this, try doing the same with a friend of yours to get a fealing of teamwork in development. Learn how to use SVN, basecamp... learn about software development processes (Agile!), peer programming..
There's a lot to experience! Then you could give open source another try.
Hope that helps
I'd recommend trying a pure functional language, such as Haskell. It's a completely different way of looking at programming, and I found it very satisfying.
I recommend the book Real World Haskell for learning it.
Edit: In response to comments, my interpretation of the question is where can he go from here as a programmer. Functional programming is a logical direction. For someone learning functional programming for the first time, Haskell is nice because it doesn't really allow for imperative programming practices. Furthermore, it has basically all features you will find in other functional languages, which means it will be easy to pick up other functional languages.
I would suggest looking at Project Euler. It's a great and fun way to learn a new language, and it does provide that level of satisfaction when you solve the problems. They offer a huge range of problems at all levels of difficulty.
I think the best way to improve your skills as a programmer is to do what programming was intended for: solve problems. I'm sure you've been playing around on your machine and at one time thought to yourself "I wish there was a program that did this..." or "I wonder if there are any programs that do X..." Instead of just googling to see if someone else wrote it, write it yourself. Start with something small, and gradually make it more complex. Add features. Allow yourself to fail, and when you do, ask yourself (or us at stackoverflow) how to overcome that obstacle. Once you have the basics of programming, everything else is just making big things out of littler things, and the little things are usually pretty easy.
When you are making something you know you will actually use, it's more fun and more gratifying when you finish.
Do you understand all of the following and how they work?
Linked lists (single and double)
Sequential vs. binary search
Binary trees
Stacks
Red-black trees
Algorithmic complexity and big O notation
Recursion
Hash tables and hashing algorithms
If you don't feel completely conversant in any of these, take a class in data structures and algorithms.
It seems like you've experienced many languages, but have not created a real-world application. Creating software in any of those languages will bring you to a new level.
PS: Creating software is much more than just knowing how to mess around with a language.
Check out Design Patterns.
I believe that's beyond mere simple coding.
You could offer your abilities to a non profit or a friend or someone who needs a website or program built.
Tell them you can do it for free and then just go for it. As you start to make it you'll start to see what you need to learn.
For example I bit ago I had the program Peel www.getpeel.com on my Mac. But sold my Mac for Wind as I am traveling.
Seeing that there was nothing for Windows (or nothing I could find) like Peel. I build my own in PHP and am up to a 4th rebuilding of it as I learn betters ways to do each new thing I am learning.
You've got to find a particular type of functionality that interests you. For me it's been basic socket programming and making my own protocols. I got that feeling when I was able to create a functional file uploading control that worked in conjunction with a file upload service on the server which I had created. The protocol handles authentication, chunking and hash comparison. Sometime soon I plan on incorporating file-resume functionality as well.
Well my advice will be to find a problem/project you are interested in and try to code it. Trying a real problem is something that drives you. Find something not to complex but not too simple. Something to try when starting a new language is to write some tools. You can for example program a python script that print metrics on a C++ project. You can write a tool that extract some statistics from a website you use, etc. When I learn programming game programming was quite fun (I was young :-) ). You can try to program some simple game using a 3D engine like Ogre3D for example. Participate in an opensource project is great too but as you stated perhaps a bit overwhelming for now ;-)
Find something you like and that has a REAL useful goal for you. You will thrive to solve the problem and learn a lot along the way !
I think the transition from the kind of finite tractable problems that are part of class projects (and some internships) to "real world" projects is quite tough. Sounds like language syntax, getting bugs out of code etc. is something you are comforatble with.
When we come to larger projects, probably with many release cycles, with developers working together, different kinds of problems emerge. I remember being shocked when I saw my first big project plan - what a small propertion of the time was actually writing code!
The thing I found helpful as a junior was "Sitting By Nelly", I was lucky enough to work for enlighted employers who put me with very experienced and helpful developers. Sometimes to work with, sometime to work alongside. I reckon that helped me get over the hurdles you describe.
So, I reckon you need to find employment of this kind. Be less concerned about specific technologies, salary etc. Look instead for the culture and level of responsibility you would have.
I think you should really start a "real world application" as suggested here. You will see that a real project requires a bit more than just knowing the language.
I suggest you find some simple problem you had issue with, and make a software that solves that issue.
For example, if you want some kind of software that checks RSS feeds every 5 minutes and makes a little pop-up as soon as a new one comes along. Or you want a program that will let you do simple presentations by just dragging a few pictures in.
Then whatever you choose, start by making the simple solution to the problem and extend from there (like do different settings, extra features etc.)
I've looked for the answer to this question for a while now. Most all of the suggestions are usually either help an open source project or build something that interests you. I'm starting to realize that those answers are vague because what's 'interesting' or 'valuable' experience and how to get started doing it is completely subjective. Also, there's only one way to get real experience, which is to work on real projects. It's difficult but find a project, personal, open source, or otherwise that will increase your knowledge in a technology or platform that you think will hold your interest. Then just dig in. It doesn't have to be of earth shattering importance, just valuable in relation to your own goals.
There is no magic bullet transition from academic puzzle solving programs to real world applications. The best way to learn is just to jump in head first. It will take you a very long time to learn what you need to if you only ever look at your own code. You need to be looking at code written by professionals and struggling to understand why it works the way it does until you do understand it.
It seems overwhelming at first, but you will quickly start to see patterns if the application is at all logical. Well written code will be separated in logical ways, so you should be able to pick it apart one layer at a time.
For example, you could try a bottom up approach where you try to understand how the database interactions are handled before looking at the code that uses the database layer. You keep going upward until you get to the GUI event handlers.
Large enterprise applications can be even harder to understand because there might be a lot more than one executable, or component. Try to stay focused and learn what the component is responsible for doing, and then pick it apart a piece at a time.
You will see that there are not just patterns at the function and class level, but at higher levels as well. This makes it simpler to understand what is going on when you understand those patterns.
Try to find an internship or co-op position. I was in a similar situation after my first few courses. I took a co-op position sophomore year and I learned so much more on the job than I did in class. Class is great for teaching you theory and the basics. I learned C# on my first project on my co-op and that got me my second co-op position at another employer (wanted to see how it was working at a small company).
This past spring, I accepted a position at my first co-op employer, reworking my first major project I had started on my co-op. I have a list of side projects I also want to complete, which will help round out my skills, as well as learn some other languages.
So my suggestion is try finding a job where you can have a great mentor. On my second co-op, I learned alot of the coding standards that I code against from my supervisor. He was a great teacher, and really had some great input, and explained why things should be done certain ways.
You will almost certainly go nowhere unless you find something that interests you. Figure out what is interesting, and then how to write software involving it.
The only way to begin is to begin! There is really no other way... The best answers you get would always tell you this. You have the knowledge, now put it to work!