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I need to display post and related data in column-wise grid and certainly require table for those as aligning divs in single line, using floats is a time consuming thing!
Will appreciate your reviews on Do's and Don't for Tables in HTML5!
Simple rule - Use tables for tabular data, use other elements for presentation(designing layouts using css) like div, section, aside, nav etc . which provides meaning to the content they hold rather than using table for everything
The fact is, developers used tables in 90s for drafting their layouts, but now, new CSS3 spec is amazing, it gives you so much hold on designing layouts like Flex Box, column-count, behavior of the box model can be altered by using box-sizing property, responsive designs are getting better and better using #media queries, grids etc., which you cannot achieve with table element... and hence, table is only used for storing tabular data.
I've seen many developers having an impression that table should be completely ignored, and instead they use a whole lot of div with 100 lines of CSS, applying display: table; table-cell table-row properties just to get a single table straight.
So even in HTML5 it is COMPLETELY OK if you use tables for tabular data.
From W3 Org : (v4.01)
Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout
document content as this may present problems when rendering to
non-visual media. Additionally, when used with graphics, these tables
may force users to scroll horizontally to view a table designed on a
system with a larger display. To minimize these problems, authors
should use style sheets to control layout rather than tables.
From (HTML 5)
Tables should not be used as layout aids. Historically, many Web
authors have tables in HTML as a way to control their page layout
making it difficult to extract tabular data from such documents. In
particular, users of accessibility tools, like screen readers, are
likely to find it very difficult to navigate pages with tables used
for layout. If a table is to be used for layout it must be marked with
the attribute role="presentation" for a user agent to properly
represent the table to an assistive technology and to properly convey
the intent of the author to tools that wish to extract tabular data
from the document.
There are a variety of alternatives to using HTML tables for layout,
primarily using CSS positioning and the CSS table model. [CSS]
According to the specifications, <table> represents data with more than one dimension and "must not be used as layout aids."
If you need to display tabular data with more than one dimension, then you should definitely use a table. If you just need columns, don't. There are many CSS frameworks out there like bootstrap that can simplify the styles you need to build a grid.
Can anyone explain to a css/html learner why I would style a generic html element (e.g. <div>) with display:table rather than simply using the HTML table tag? It seems to me that the latter would be the one to choose since it's implemented especially for the purpose of presenting table data, but I know the former wouldn't have come into being without a good reason. I just haven't been able to come across a decent explanation. My usually-quite-reliable friend, Google hasn't been able to offer me much help on this one.
Thank you in advance!
Niall
display:table, display:table-row and display:table-cell were added for use as default display properties for <table>, <tr> and <td> respectively.
Outside of their defaults they are generally used for hacks like centering text vertically or pseudo-element clearfixing for example. Basically don't do it unless you need one of these hacks, especially don't do it if you want to implement a table as it will not be semantically correct leading to accessibility issues.
A word of warning, using display:table has semantic effects in some screen readers. This could lead to a section in your site that has multiple meaning for users using assistive technology.
There are several reasons, including the following:
To make it possible to style XML documents using tabular layout. CSS is not just for HTML.
To document the default rendering of HTML table elements in CSS terms.
To make it possible to use (simple) table layout for data marked up using e.g. div elements.
There are quite a few reasons to not use a HTML table but instead build a CSS table. But first, check to see the stats for your site and what browsers you need to support. You may need to support visitors that use older browsers that don't support display:table - eg IE7 http://caniuse.com/#search=display%3Atable
One reason to use CSS tables is to separate the formatting from the content. If you ever wanted to manipulate the data into another structure at a later date, you would have to replace all of the table code rather than just tweaking the CSS.
Another reason is to make the tabular data responsive. You can have a lot more control over the data if it's divs than if it's a HTML table. You may choose to rewrap the content as lists, or hide, show, scroll, truncate... the content as you see fit. While some of this is still possible with HTML tables, not all of it is.
I've used tables but never used the CSS way of doing things. Now I have a table of data with 3 rows and 2 columns. Can someone please explain how I can do this with CSS DIVs and also most important is I would like to know if CSS is the way to do this and what are the limitations.
Beware of display: table-cell. It doesn't work on the anti-browser (the "browser" whose name must not be spoken).
Also, if you have table data, use tables. Use other tags when they make sense semantically (such as <p> for paragraph, <ol> for ordered lists, etc...), or <div>s for layout.
If it's a table of data, then the best (and most semantic) choice is to just stick with a good old <table>.
The support for display: table-cell is good, see: http://caniuse.com/#search=table
It will work in all modern browsers, and IE8+.
It won't work in IE7, which is a limiting factor for some people.
Besides being semantic, the use of Tables for tabular data also gives much better support for Screen Reader software. If you don't write code that can be read easily by screen readers, you're effectively blocking usability by disabled people.
Just for fun, try your CSS method. Get a copy of the Webmaster Toolbar plug-in for Firefox and use it to toggle CSS off. Now, was that worth it? Imagine a screenreader trying to make heads or tails of that mess....
2 things:
display: table-cell isn't new, it was in CSS 2
display: table-cell should not be used for anything other than tr elements unless you love to track down browser-specific inconsistencies and bugs
I have a table of data
You are dealing with tabular data-- there is nothing wrong about using a table to do this. In fact, it would be the best practice and semantic way to marking up said data
Use tables to display tabular data.
However, for any other type of layout not having to do with tabular data, you should really use div's.
It really depends on what you are trying to do, if it's just the design of a webpage then use floating divs, if it's tabular data then definitely use tables, it's what they were built for.
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Closed 13 years ago.
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Why not use tables for layout in HTML?
I know everyone is all about DIV's and css and against tables now days, I have always used tables because they are so easy for me to visually see what I am doing while building, I am just now ventruing into the DIV world.
So my question are tables completely replaced by div's generally? I notice on the source of stackoverflow it is mostly DIV's but still uses tables as well, so I am guessing that tables must be used sometimes?
Below is an image of something I am trying to accomplish, most of it is coded but some of it is added in on photoshop, so far I have it all done in div's however what I have is only the background cells which are a list item and the photos, what I am missing from my code is all the text areas and it would be super easy for me to position the text areas within a table cell but since like 80% of the object is done with just css and divs I am not sure if I should just try to finsih it with just div's or if a table inside the comment div's would be the way to go.
I noticed on this page that the ansers are a table inside of a DIV
alt text http://img2.pict.com/e0/4e/de/1486585/0/screenshot2b15.png
To be semantically correct, tables should only used for tabular data and not for laying out a page.
David Dorward brought something to my attention in a comment. According to the HTML 4.01 Specification's section on Tables in HTML Documents:
Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content as this may present problems when rendering to non-visual media. Additionally, when used with graphics, these tables may force users to scroll horizontally to view a table designed on a system with a larger display. To minimize these problems, authors should use style sheets to control layout rather than tables.
Theres a lot of fervent zealotry regarding this notion of semantic content, which is fine and all but the only problem is that it's hopelessly naive.
Fact: there are some things that can be done trivially with tables that either can't be done in "pure" CSS, are extremely difficult in "pure" CSS, have some nasty side effects in "pure" CSS or have serious cross-browser issues.
I did my CSS3 Wish List and in compiling that list I realized some things I've been able to do with tables since HTML 3.2 a decade ago I still can't do with divs.
I'm all for having a semantic layout. Nice ideal. But until it can do everything it's trying to replace then the thing it's trying to replace will have valid use cases.
divs are used instead of tables in most of the sites. But you can use tables in some situations where design using div will be complicated in a cross browser way.
For eg vetical aligning contents inside div will be a big problem as compared to that in table cells.
In this page also you can find table tags being used.
Tables will only be rendered to the screen after all the cells are finished processing.
Take a look at the following questions also.
Why not use tables for layout in HTML?
DIV’s vs Tables or CSS vs. Being Stupid
Yet Another Divs vs Tables Question: Forms
I think a lot of people will argue that "tabular" data, or data that can best be expressed in rows and columns, should be kept in a table, but that divs were invented to replace tables as large layout elements. In my personal opinion, tables were always used as layout elements in a way that went beyond their intended purpose. That's not to say that people don't still misuse divs, for example
<div align="center">To replace a <center> tag</div>
I'd say check out A List Apart, specifically Their section on layout for tips on how to use modern compliant css-based design.
edit : My point was that this is the INCORRECT use of a div tag. In this example, you would use a style such as "text-align:center" or apply that style to the tag itself, but in this case there is no reason to wrap your text in a block-level element, because text by default is inline, so you would be better off with something more like this...
<p class="center">This is a centered paragraph</p>
and then in your stylesheet
.center { text-align:center; }
Thus, the following:
<div>Monday | Tuesday | Wednesday | Thursday | Friday</div>
<div>Work | Work | Work | Work | Play</div>
May be compliant but it looks terrible, and you'd be better off doing :
<table>
<th>
<td>Monday</td><td>Tuesday</td><td>Wednesday</td><td>Thursday</td><td>Friday</td>
</th>
<tr>
<td>Work</td><td>Work</td><td>Work</td><td>Work</td><td>Play</td>
</tr>
</table>
Tables are appropriate for tabular data, but divs + CSS is preferred for general page layout.
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=TablesVsDivs has many good reasons why, as well as some counter arguments.
Like Korey and Thomas said, it's better to use table to represent tabular data.
If you want to make website layout in pure CSS, you can take a look on these CSS frameworks, which ease the task :
http://elements.projectdesigns.org/
http://960.gs/
http://www.blueprintcss.org/
http://elasticss.com/
http://www.yaml.de/en/
http://bluetrip.org/
http://devkick.com/lab/tripoli/
There are a lot of css frameworks out these, just find the one which fit your needs..
Update : Here is a more complete list of css frameworks.
Tables should only be used for tabular data. To figure out if what I am dealing with is tabular I ask myself "would I put this in Excel or Word if it?"
Bill Merikallio & Adam Pratt wrote a funny and informative article Why tables for layout is stupid. They also detail where tables should be used and when.
Tables as means of describing the structure of tabular data have not been replaced.
Tables as means for describing presentation have been replaced, but not with divs. They have been replaced with stylesheets in associate with whatever element best describes the semantics of the content. A div has no semantics associated with it, so it is used if there is nothing better.
It certainly depends. The Golden Rule you must remember is that the XHTML/HTML document file it's meant to describe content and flow.
Everything that is design should be (whenever it's possible, there are some certainly some case scenarios where we can't control it, like when CMS appear on the game) controlled using a CSS file.
Now, how can we reach the most semantically and pragmatical result? As with everything, it depends. Using XHTML/HTML tag elements instead on just relying on for correct content display it's the recommended way.
Notice that I've said tag elements. DIV is just one of them, but just replacing with whenever a or / tags exists is not enough. In fact, that will push you over "divitis" (the useless employ of divs for everything!) and WILL make your job hard. Try checking most tags and use them whenever seems correct.
Sometimes it's a pretty subjective matter as to what qualifies as a content or another tag. Just in this question someone asked if this content would be considered tabulated data (the one that tables are supposed to be used for), but I think that whatever content you must order and filter (and you can copy and paste on Excel without worries) it's worthy material.
Everythin else, it's mostly always just some interesting layout display that should be worked on with CSS and other tags.
Some people will say it's too much work and not worth it. I disagree. Though learning how to work with CSS/divs nuances it's somewhat different at first, you'll soon learn the twist of it.
Good luck and remember that we are always learning new stuff, so don't worry on question everything.
My recommendation would be to really learn HTML. Use the element that actually relates to the content. If it is a list of items, use one of the list tags. If it is data entry, use a fieldset tag. There aren't that many tags to chose from yet so many are neglected. If you simply replace all your table layout formatting with DIVs, your tag soup might be a little less chunky but you can still choke on it.
In terms of performance side, table(s) will only get rendered once the end tag () is reached, so if it is a table contains 100s of rows, you will see that table appears in the browser little later. This is not true for DIVs.
I posted on meta-SO about their tables: https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/3110/when-did-so-start-using-tables-for-layout/3547#3547
In short, I think it's fine since it is tabular data.
You should check Elastic CSS Framework you can layout an unlimited combination of columns very easily and position them with its helpers, check out the documentation.
cheers
CSS is great and all, but I mainly use it for styling, not layout. I and countless other developers still use tables every day for building web pages, and will for the foreseeable future.
If you want to use absolute and relative positioning for layouts, go for it. If not, you are not evil or stupid for not doing so. The main thing to look out for when using tables is preventing table nesting hell IMO.
This question already has answers here:
Closed 10 years ago.
Possible Duplicate:
Why not use tables for layout in HTML?
Under what conditions should you choose tables instead of DIVs in HTML coding?
The whole "Tables vs Divs" thing just barely misses the mark. It's not "table" or "div". It's about using semantic html.
Even the div tag plays only a small part in a well laid out page. Don't overuse it. You shouldn't need that many if you put your html together correctly. Things like lists, field sets, legends, labels, paragraphs, etc can replace much of what a div or span is often used to accomplish. Div should be used primarily when it makes sense to indicate a logical division, and only appropriated for extra layout when absolutely necessary. The same is true for table; use it when you have tabular data, but not otherwise.
Then you have a more semantic page and you don't need quite as many classes defined in your CSS; you can target the tags directly instead. Possibly most importantly, you have a page that will score much better with Google (anecdotally) than the equivalent table or div-heavy page. Most of all it will help you better connect with a portion of your audience.
So if we go back and look at it in terms of table vs div, it's my opinion that we've actually come to the point where div is over-used and table is under-used. Why? Because when you really think about it, there are a lot of things out there that fall into the category of "tabular data" that tend to be overlooked. Answers and comments on this very web page, for example. They consist of multiple records, each with the same set of fields. They're even stored in a sql server table, for crying out loud. This is the exact definition of tabular data. This means an html table tag would absolutely be a good semantic choice to layout something like the posts here on Stack Overflow. The same principle applies to many other things as well. It may not be a good idea to use a table tag to set up a three column layout, but it's certainly just fine to use it for grids and lists... except, of course, when you can actually use the ol or ul (list) tags.
When the data I am presenting is, indeed, tabular.
I find it ridiculous that some web designers used divs on tabular data on some sites.
One other use I would have for it would be forms, particularly label : textbox pairs. This could technically be done in div boxes, but it's much, much easier to do this in tables, and one can argue that label:textbox pairs are in fact tabular in nature.
I used to do pure CSS but I abandoned that pursuit in favor of hybrid table/css approach as the most pragmatic approach. Ironically, it's also because of accessibility. Ever try doing CSS on Sidekick? What a nightmare! Ever seen how CSS-based websites are rendered on new browsers? Elements would overlap or just don't display correctly that I had to turn off the CSS. Ever try resizing CSS-based websites? They look awful and often detrimental to the blind if they use zooming features in the browser! If you do that with tables, they scale much better. When people talk about accessibility, I find that many have no clue and it annoys me because I am disabled and they aren't. Have they really worked with the blind? The deaf? If accessibility is a main concern, why the hell are 99% of videos not closed captioned? Many CSS purists use AJAX but fail to realize that AJAX often makes content inaccessible.
Pragmatically, it's ok to use a single table as a main layout as LONG as you provide the information in a logical flow if the cells are stacked (something you'd see on mobiles). The CSS theory sounds great but partially workable in real life with too many hacks, something that is against the ideals of "purity."
Since using the CSS with tables approach, I've saved so much time designing a website and maintanance is much easier. Fewer hacks, more intuitive. I get fewer calls from people saying "I inserted a DIV and now it looks all screwed up!" And even more importantly, absolutely NO accessibility issues.
Usually whenever you're not using the table to provide a layout.
Tables -> data
Divs -> layout
(mainly)
Note: At the time the question was asked, there were practical reasons for using tables for some layout purposes. This is not necessary anymore due to browser improvements, so I have updated the answer.
HTML <table>-elements should be used when the data logically has a two dimensional structure. If the data can be structured in rows and columns and you can meaningfully apply headers to both rows and columns, then you probably have tabular data.
I you only have a single row or single column of data, then it is not tabular data - it is just linear content. You need at least two rows and two columns before it can be considered tabular data.
Some examples:
Using tables for placing sidebars and page headers/footers. This is not tabular data but page layout. Something like css grid or flexbox is more appropriate.
Using tables for newspaper-style columns. This is not tabular data - you would still read it linearly. Something like css columns is more appropriate.
I would make a distinction between HTML for public websites (tables no-no-no, divs yes-yes-yes) and HTML for semi-public or private web applications, where I tend to prefer tables even for page layout.
Most of the respectable reasons why "Tables are bad" are usually an issue only for public websites, but not so much of a problem with webapps. If I can get the same layout and have a more consistent look across browsers by using a TABLE than a complicated CSS+DIV, then I usually go ahead and aprove the TABLE.
As many posters have already mentioned, you should use tables to display for tabular data.
Tables were introduced in HTML 3.2 here is the relevant paragraph from the spec on their usage:
[tables] can be used to markup tabular material or for layout purposes...
Agree with Thomas -- the general rule of thumb is if it makes sense on a spreedsheet, you can use a table. Otherwise not.
Just don't use tables as your layout for the page, that's the main problem people have with them.
I can see the argument for tables for forms, but there is a nicer alternative... you just have to roll up your sleeves and learn CSS.
for example:
<fieldset>
<legend>New Blog Post</legend>
<label for="title">Title:</label>
<input type="text" name="title" />
<label for="body">Body:</label>
<textarea name="body" rows="6" cols="40">
</textarea>
</fieldset>
You can take that html and layout the form either side-by-side labels, or labels on top of the textboxes (which is easier). Having the flexibility really helps. It's also less HTML than the table equivalent of either.
For some excellent examples of CSS forms, check out these excellent examples:
http://jeffhowden.com/code/css/forms/
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/fancy-form-design-css/
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2006/11/11/css-based-forms-modern-solutions/
I will usually opt for tables to display form-type information (First Name, Last Name, Address, etc.) where lining labels and fields across multiple rows is important. DIVs I use for layout.
Of course the table is wrapped in a DIV :)
Tables were designed for tabular content, not for layout.
So, don't ever feel bad if you use them to display data.
I use tables in two cases:
1) Tabular data
2) Any time I want my layout to dynamically size itself to its contents
If your data can be laid out in a two-dimensional grid, use <table>. If it can't, don't. Using <table> for anything else is a hack (though frequently not one with proper alternatives, especially when it comes to compatibility with older browsers). Not using <table> for something that clearly should be one is equally bad. <div> and <span> aren't for everything; in fact, being completely meaningless on a semantic level, they are to be avoided at all costs in favor of more semantic alternatives.
On this subject, I thought this site was pretty funny.
1) For displaying tabular data. A calendar is one example of tabular data that isn't always obvious at first.
2) I work for a medical billing company, and nearly all of the layout for our internal work is done using CSS. However, from time to time we get paper forms from insurance companies that our billers have to use, and a program will convert them to an html format that they can fill out and print via the intranet. To make sure the forms are accepted they need to match the original paper version very closely. For these it's just simple to fall back to tables.
Tables are used for tabular data. If it makes sense to put it in a spreadsheet then use a table. Otherwise there is a better tag for you to be using such as div, span, ul, etc.
I believe just tabular content. For example, if you printed out a database table or spreadsheet-like data to HTML.
If you would like to have semantically correct HTML, then you should use tables only for tabular data.
Otherwise you use tables for everything you want, but there probably is a way to do the same thing using divs and CSS.
#Marius:
Is the layout tabular data? No, while it was standard a few years ago it's not now :-)
One other use I would have for it would be forms, particularly label : textbox pairs. This could technically be done in div boxes, but it's much, much easier to do this in tables, and one can argue that label:textbox pairs are in fact tabular in nature.
I tend to give the label a fixed width, or display it on the line above.
#Jon Limjap
For label : textbox, neither divs nor tables are appropriate: <dl>s are
One other use I would have for it
would be forms, particularly label :
textbox pairs. This could technically
be done in div boxes, but it's much,
much easier to do this in tables, and
one can argue that label:textbox pairs
are in fact tabular in nature.
I see that a fair amount, especially among MS developers. And I've done it a fair amount in the past. It works, but it ignores some accessibility and best-practice factors. You should use labels, inputs, fieldsets, legends, and CSS to layout your forms. Why? Because that's what they are for, it's more efficient, and I think accessibility is important. But that's just my personal preference. I think everyone should try it that way first before condemning it. It's quick, easy, and clean.
When ever a page containg tables is loaded by any browser it takes more time for the browser to render properly the tag. Where as if the div is used ,the browser takes less time as it is lighter. And more over we can apply the css to make the divs appear as table,
The tables are normally heavy wieght and div are light weight.
It is clear that the DIV are used for Layout but It happened to me to being "forced" to use spreadsheets to do a grid layout within a div structure for this reasons:
the addition of percentage values did not allow a proper alignment with the div, while the same values expressed on cells of tables gave the expected result.
So I think that tables are still useful not only for data, but also for the situation above, on top of that, tables are still W3C compliant browser and alternative browsers (for the disabled for example) interpret theirs correctly.
Divs are simple divisions, they are mean't to be used to group sections of the page that are in a semantic sense linked. They carry no implicit meaning other than that.
Tables were originally intended to display scientific data, such as lab results on screen. Dave Raggett certainly didn't intend them to become used to implement layout.
I find it keeps it fairly clear in your mind if you remember the above, if its something you would normally expect to read in a table, then that's the appropriate tag, if its pure layout, then use something else to accomplish your needs.