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I have been coding procedural php for a while and I feel I got a pretty good hang of it.
I feel like learning something new. Any ideas on what is good/hot to know?
I have read some about zend mvc and it seems interesting, but im not sure..
I feel like procedural php is so unorganized and hard to debug when the project grows big.
help me out thanks
I'm a Python/Django developer myself so I'm pretty biased. I don't have anything against Ruby/RoR.
I'd take a look at the languages that the frameworks are built in and see which one you think you'd prefer.
I personally like how Python is structured so I went with Django. I know some fabulous programmers who prefer Ruby so they went with RoR. I personally wouldn't stick with PHP, but I know people who make a very descent living with it as well.
You can't really go wrong either way. but for now MVC is definitely the way to go. I'd look at the language first and the framework second.
Also, sometimes clients and/or the company you work for will make this decision for you. As long as you understand the underlying concepts of MVC and web development, it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to learn a new framework.
I would suggest moving to OOP with PHP. I've done some Python and Ruby and now PHP and OOP is more prevalent in both Python and Ruby. I think you'll learn A LOT by going the OOP route with a language you already know rather than switch languages and then have to learn OOP on top of that.
If you start to learn either Ruby or Python (which are both good suggestions), you should not just pick the most popular web framework, but investigate several options. RoR for instance gives you extremely good productivity as long as you stick "with the program", but other frameworks, like Sinatra, might have better (and simpler) solutions for some problems.
Within a single framework you might also have the option of selecting different ORM mappers, different templating engines, etc.
So, learn the languages first. Then get familiar with a handful of frameworks and libraries. Then specialize when you know the landscape.
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I've noticed many questions on here from new programmers that can be solved using libraries. When a library is suggested, often times they respond "I don't want to use X library" Is it the learning curve? or ? Just curious!
A lot of new programmers are still working at a very low level of abstraction, learning the trade. That's something everyone has to go through. It takes a while to "move up the stack" so to speak.
Once programmers realise that they spend most of the time solving the same problems as someone else already did, and the goal is to realise "business value", then they can really appreciate the value a good library brings.
When you're still learning the ins and outs of a new language, also having to learn how to use a 3rd party library can look like too much work. Also, libraries tend to be badly documented - or at least have documentation that seems totally opaque to a new(er) programmer.
So, faced with trying to solve problem X, saying "use a library" can sound a lot like "solve problem Y THEN problem x".
(Also, their professors told them not to. I managed to get all the way though my undergrad in C++ without learning the STL existed. Boy, did THAT cook my noodle.)
Some people, when confronted with a
problem, think “I know, I'll use a
library.” Now they have two
problems.
Seriously - this is a reasonable way for a newbie, already overwhelmed by new language, programming environment, paradigms, keystrokes, etc. to react to the suggestion to use a library. If you've got a solution, but it's not working, there are many potential sources of error; sorting through them is a challenge. Adding to them can seem irrational.
"Use a library" means find the library, download it, install it in your project, and call the necessary function. Not hard, if you're used to it (and there aren't corporate policies against it, and you have reason to trust the vendor, and the library itself has minimal dependencies, etc.). But if it's all new to you, when you ask a programming question and get back a system configuration answer, it can seem unhelpful (even if it is not, in fact).
Almost always it's because their professor has told them that they can't.
Sometimes it's just because they want to learn it themselves, but I'd say that's rare.
It's the learning curve.
Using libraries is probably one of the worst things a learning programmer can do. Instead of learning how to code, they're learning how to use specific APIs that other people implemented. I'm not saying that every programmer has to understand every single thing that they use, but programmers who know the ins and outs of a computer (digital logic, assembling op-codes, etc) usually have an edge over people who've started with something like Java Swing and are just throwing together libraries.
In production, this is a different matter of course. But I think the best course of education is to 'make everything' once, at least. Writing my own web application framework from the ground up really improved my programming skills and abstract abilities. Doesn't mean I'll use that framework if someone hires me to build them an application, but I know the strengths, weaknesses, and reasons behind the things that the 'giant' frameworks use, and it can help me choose a particular framework for a particular situation.
I remember shying away from several libraries simply because I wanted to see if I could create my own algorithm. I didn't want to just give up and let someone do the work for me but rather I wanted to learn from my mistakes. Once I had come up with a solution I was happy with, I looked into the libraries.
So for me it was simply wanting to see if I could do it.
I always have this urge to do it myself, but sometimes I can see my own limitations.
Just recently downloaded a library to create PDF documents, but thats pretty much the only time I can remember.
At least for me, (trying to) do things myself, is my way of learning.
My impression is that many newbie programmers wouldn't consider it their own work if they were to use someone elses libraries.
I don't think that this is necessarily a bad thing. Using libraries is great; it saves time, effort, bugs, etc. However, you learn very little in the process, and for new programmers, learning is the goal. To answer the question, I think that they tend to shy way from libraries simply because they are not used to using them and perhaps they don't know that they exist.
For many poorly documented libraries that are either implemented loosely or in languages that don't allow you to control containment and visibility very well, it can be quite difficult to guess just how the library is supposed to be used.
After you've used it for a while, you've gotten used to the quirks or read other source code that taught you the right way; but until then it can be pretty irritating to use a poorly put-together/designed library. (or even a well designed one that isn't terribly well documented).
If you don't have the source code to the library, that's another problem--you have no control over the ability to keep your program working. This is much more rare these days, but still happens in the case of a purchased library.
Most of the points covered off (for me the main one is the learning curve) but one other I think plays a part:
Because learning about a library is less exciting than coding the same functionality yourself.
More libraries = less billable hours.
I think there's a lot of time that needs to be invested in understanding the library's purpose - yes, a learning curve, but it's more that newbie programmers probably don't know what they need until they have a lot more experience.
Because it's fun.
Because part of maturing as a developer is learning to quickly identify problems which can be solved by a library or existing solution and which need personal attention.
When you're trying to learn how to do things, anytime something is accomplished "magically" by calling AwesomeClass.doAwesomeStuff(), you end up giving away a portion of control. When you are "new" and don't know what you're giving away or why it can be unsettling. This was my primary knock against Rails when I was first learning it. So many things just "worked" and I didn't know why without digging through lots of Rails source (which I generally didn't have time to do).
At least, that's my take on it.
The same reason that more experienced developers do -
Because it can often be as difficult to learn how to use a library as to write the part of it you need yourself. And at least then you can understand how it works when it doesn't do what you expect.
An experienced developer just has experience at understanding how to use libraries so more likely to consider it. An inexperienced developer it's one more thing to learn...
I'm a programmer, not a psychologist! :)
It was a long, long time ago for me, but it was because I wanted to learn and experience. I didn't want to use something I did not understand, so if I didn't think I understood the library and could program it myself, I tried not to use it. There might have been a bit of fear too; programming gives you a feeling of control, and using a library is like giving away this control.
Answer from a noob -
"I am not sure how to use the libraries or even how to access them or how it works"
Libraries often come with the overhead of learning some API and it's paradigm. It can get complex fairly quickly, and I could easily understand that beginners would prefer something a bit more in their comfort zone. From my experience, I found most libraries & frameworks seem to do a great job abstracting some tedious routine, but when I need to either extend this functionality, or use it in a way that's not intended, it can be a handful.
I think it's one of those things where "practice makes perfect".
Well, the newbie's purpose might be more solving the problem than implementing a solution. Perhaps what they really want to do is figure out how to solve the problem. I mean, if they're still heavily in the learning phase, it's quite possible they don't want easy answers handed to them.
I think the professors want them to stick to the basics. When I graduated from under-grad school, I knew C++, Java and some other languages but had no clue about libraries and frameworks being used in companies. It was like do you know java..yes..can you write a servlet..no.
For speed demons they rarely use 3rd party libraries and new programmers are usually looking to squeeze every once of speed of of their code. I think if they don't have control over their code they can't get the performance that they are looking for. At least thats why i avoided libraries when I first started to program.
I remember programing my first DAL and avoided all the other free libraries out on the web because I wanted my code to perform at top speed. Later, I discovered that usually its not the code thats the bttleneck its actually the database.
Some open source libraries are buggy or not as efficient as others.
In my eyes another factor is that additional libraries add complexity. Programs tend to get harder to understand, harder to maintain and buggier when getting more complex. I think what makes especially new programmers shy away from libraries is that adding library code increases complexity more than adding your own code - simply because understanding how the library works is still out of their grasp. So it seems to be a problem of both skill and psychology.
I think more fundamental issues can be recognized as a deterrant to using existing libraries.
Part of this as "newbie programmers" is a lack of exposure to libraries. If you don't know they exist, how do you know to use them?
Number Of Options Available. Let's say I'm really interested in learning more about MVC, but if I have to choose between cakephp and smarty and zend and ... well you can quickly see the gears work to discover a way to achieve the goal without investing the time experimenting. Take a look at Freshmeat or SourceForge to get a better understanding at the daunting selection of libraries available.
Questionable support combined with sketchy/outdated documentation for the libraries. Do I want to use this tool that may no longer work or may be abandoned in the future? It is likely that a project will evolve, and so it will for the project of a library too. Will its usefulness last the lifetime of my project or will I be required to re-do this work again?
Using a library requires you to understand the relatively complex design of the library, something that new programmers might not have mastered because all they've ever written is simple/procedural/single-purpose code. For example, to an experienced programmer standard design patterns like template method, observer and command seem pretty obvious, but to a newbie it all just seems like magic and/or unnecessary complexity. For me the turning point was when I got good enough to grok design patterns and write some basic reusable code.
It's been a long time now, but when I came out of college, I knew nothing of libraries. This was in the days of mainframes and mini-computers. Our college had a VAX and the managers were paranoid about students hacking the system, so didn't allow us to even see the library manuals. So, when I first came out of college, I didn't even think of libraries being available.
I am sure there are a lot of reasons why the newbie doesn't want to use the new library. But wouldn't this be a good opportunity, if you have enough time, to show them what the advantage of using the library is? With the people I work with, I will usually provide an example of why something is better than their approach. It helps them learn and mature as a programmer.
Happens that noobs use Libs without knowing, but when they must import/add one that is fairly less documented, there is a fear of unknow. That happens mostly for compiled langs!
In the interpreted, (or compiled IRT), mainly when there is a console, such fear is almost non-existent; since you can require and see if it fails, call a method and see what it returns.
Consoles are tools of bravery !
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I am just dipping my hands into web technologies. I started with HTML and now JavaScript and PHP. I have a variety of questions in my mind. I am a hardcore .NET Windows developer and earn my living with it. But now I want to go deep into Web and so here are my queries:
(1) I started using PHP. I also want to learn Ruby with Rails. Can I learn both side-by-side?
(2) What type of sample projects I can develop to learn well these technologies? I just have in mind to make a web log, that it.
(3) I am using Aptana Studio 2009. It is very good but not the best IDE. Which other IDE can speed up my design time? Any tool that separates the design with business logic automatically?
(4) What other things I must learn to bring myself to the front in web technologies?
Firstly, I applaud the initiative in learning Web technologies. Frankly, going forward, I think programmers will increasingly find it harder to not know Web stuff.
To answer your questions:
I would advise sticking to one at least for awhile. I'd suggest that one be PHP. Why? Ruby on Rails is a language and a framework. I'm a strong advocate of people having some understanding of the underlying technologies, including HTTP, before they throw frameworks on top of it that may confuse or hide issues a developer needs to know about. Stick with vanilla PHP and don't confuse it by throwing something like CodeIgniter, Kohana, Symfony, CakePHP or Zend on top of it;
A blog is a fine learner project. Whatever you pick shouldn't be something terribly complicated, something you can get something out of relatively quickly and something you should be able to add features you want to (you'll be more interested this way);
Jetbrains new Web IDE is coming along nicely. It's what I've switched to. PhpEd, Eclipse PDT and Netbeans all have different merits;
HTMl, CSS and Javascript. Additionally I'd also recommend jQuery.
1) Yes. But it is advisable to pick one technology/web framework and master it. It is easy to get caught in the technology rat race.
2) Think of a problem you have been facing say at workplace. Perhaps there is some routine work that can be done better using a web application. Use that as a project.
4) Read up on basic design principles like layout, color etc. The Non-Designer's design book is a good place to start.
1). I personally would advise you go with Ruby, Java or .NET but stick to one whilst learning, preferably the one closest to he language you know already, which for you means .NET (C#?). I wouldn't recommend PHP under any circumstances but plenty would.
2). Yes, a blog is a good starter project.
3). Just get yourself a good text editor for starters. IDEs make a hash of HTML/CSS/JS which is what you'll be doing a lot of too. But you can stay on the free side by getting a copy of Visual Web Developer Express Edition.
4). Get seriously aware of HTTP, HTML, CSS + JS. In fact don't even think about dynamic pages until you have static pages down solid. Then add dynamic functionality.
Addendum:
From my experience of colleagues who have taken the path you're taking, desktop development teaches you a number of bad habits for web development that you're going to need to unlearn. Specifically: assumptions about state, client vs server, concurrency, and - both most and least serious - inline styling. Bad. Bad. Bad.
A solid understanding of HTTP helps clear some of those, and learning CSS (as an effective way of learning the value of separation of concerns) helps with the latter. Concurrency is something most frameworks will take you 90% of the way with but it's always going to be up to you to think about when and how to apply it.
Given further thought I would ultimately recommend you stay in .NET land (the ASP.NET pipeline model and C# as a whole are solid and mind-blowing respectively) and get yourself express and download ASP.NET MVC extensions for it - the WebForms model is pretty widely reviled by web developers for a reason, but coming from a desktop background it might be more immediate for you. At the expense of settling you into those bad habits I mentioned.
Yes if you're dedicated. If your php is stronger than your RoR familiarity there's a book for you # http://railsforphp.com/ - I would recommend getting more familiar with PHP then jumping to RoR as it's a bit more to learn because of the whole MVC architecture and the language itself is different from most semicolon and braces C-style languages.
The hello world of web programming - a blog.
Personally I use VIM which isn't an IDE, but it's pretty friggin efficient for text editing.
I would recommend often reading Stackoverflow and try to answer some questions while you're learning some new technology, it'll double the rate at which you'll learn if you really force yourself.
You can. I think I would advise
against it.
Blogs are good
places to start. Maybe a photo
gallery?
Eclipse is nice for all
sorts of development.
Like Nike
says, "Just do it" :)
1) This depends on your learning capability, but you really shouldn't. Start with either one, get good at it, then the second one will be much easier to learn.
2) As said before, blogs are a great way to start. You also want to create something like a shopping system to get the grip on good database development.
3) You don't want to create Business Logic alongside the UI. Try learning about templating engines such as Smarty, and your problem will likely vanish instantly. Try Eclipse for an IDE, or better, learn about vim.
4) Discipline. It is incredibly easy to shoot yourself in the foot using PHP and Ruby using crappy code. Dot your is and remember to initialize your variables. Don't just copy code from somewhere, but think of what it does and what could go wrong. Sanitize user input. This takes work, but saves headaches later on.
1) Dont you will just confuse yourself. Learn one after the other both are good!
2) Amazon and Wikipedia are largly php based, I know of a couple of airline booking systems, most blogs are based on one of several freely available php applications.
3) For php/javascript/css I have always gotten by quite happily with good old vim, but thats just me. I would beware of any "framemaker" type GUI html editors as they tend to generate a lot of confusing and unreadable html. Its alright for a static page but when you generate a dynamic page you really need to know what all the html tags are there for.
4) If your serious you really need to learn about cascading style sheets and how to use them properly.
(1) It is all about what you want to do and are you OK with handling new technologies. You can do anything.
(2) What about hello world or simple login application if you are beginner really.
(3) Eclipse always a Best option to think.
(4) CSS, JavaScript, and new JavaScript frame work like prototype,jQuery and more importantly some of the tag library.
I'm not really asking about how programmers learn how to program. More about specific technologies. If I wanted to learn Hibernate, how do I know what I should know prior to Hibernate? Should I learn JPA before, during or after Hibernate? Is there a better solution to Hibernate? (And I'm not really looking for information on Hibernate specifically)
Maybe stackoverflow is the place to find these answers, but it seems like with the shear vastness of frameworks, apis, libraries, programming languages, platforms, and whatever other techie word you want to use, it takes an extremely long time to come up to speed on what technology to use, when and what you need to know prior to using it.
Sometimes the best way to learn is to just dig in to a framework. Sure, you could use someones wrapper API around something, but if there is something wrong w/ hibernate, then you wouldn't know what's happening.
And to answer "how do i know what i should know prior to hibernate", you don't, that's why you are learning. When learning about c++, started out with simple data types, but i didn't know about pointers yet, didn't need to, but i learned about them when i got there. Just gotta jump in and start playing around.
I use Wikipedia to compare various technologies to copmlete a task, although it can be incomplete with regards to commercial closed-source frameworks (probably because fewer people have access to them).
For specific technologies such as Hibernate, Java, JPA, LDAP (OpenLDAP in particular), Log4J, anything Apache: they all have wikis and/or forums associated with the product that are usually more helpful than a Google search for learning. Many even come with tutorials and you should try them.
Find a book on the subject and read it. Then email the author with additional questions. Most of these authors are more than happy to help especially if you've bought and read the materials they worked so hard to produce.
If that's still not enough for you, go to a conference covering the subject, if you can make it. Again you can meet many of the people responsible for maintaining and/or creating these technologies and I've found they are always willing to answer questions.
go to sites like Coding Horror, Slashdot, Techcrunch etc and find out what people are talking about. Usually if something is popular it's probably something you might want to talk a look at.
There are these things called "books" that are filled with all kinds of knowledge.
A lot of the time the documentation and/or tutorial for any technology or project will mention what prior knowledge is assumed or useful.
So for example hibernate: http://www.hibernate.org/hib_docs/v3/reference/en/html_single/#tutorial-intro
"This tutorial is intended for new users of Hibernate but requires Java and SQL knowledge"
For me, the things that have helped my career and taught me what questions to ask are:
Podcasts -- .NET Rocks, etc., which introduce and discuss new technologies and put them in context
Join your local users group, and stick around after the presentation to talk shop with the folks there; you can learn a lot just by hearing what other people are doing and what they are working on learning next
Just look around online and start trying to use whatever tool/technology your trying to learn. As you try to learn one thing, you'll realize your lacking knowledge in other needed areas. at which point you can repeat the process of looking around for this new item you need to learn.
for example, maybe you want to learn Rails, so you start following rails tutorials, but you realize you suck at Ruby. so then you start to focus a bit more on the details of Ruby, then come back to Rails with a little more knowledge and continue on till the next roadblock. this isn't really totally correct, but you get the idea.
you won't always find a full guide of how to use everything. just give it a shot and work it out on your own if you have the time
There is an infinite number of things one could learn. Maybe a better approach would be to think of a project that interests you, or join an open source one, and then learn what you need to know to accomplish what is needed in that project. When you're done, pick a new project that might include new things not learned in the last project.
As far as free sources are concerned, as a .NET programmer I like www.asp.net, and there are many others, such as the ASP.NET quickstart tutorials at http://quickstarts.asp.net/QuickStartv20/default.aspx, C-SharpCorner is good, too, if you don't mind C#.
If you don't object to paying a little money, Lynda.com is a decent place. They have OK tutorials on all kinds of things, not just programming, and I got a decent grounding in Javascript using one of their tutorials. They are adding new things all the time, so if they don't have something on Hibernate now, they may later on. I think their basic rate is $25 per month, but you can just pay for one month and then soak up as many courses as you can find time for.
Asking a more specific question will get your a more specific answer here. When I want to read up on something I usually head to Wikipedia and then Google.
The truth is none of us have the time to read everything we'd like to. So I let someone else do it for me!
The way I solve this is by speed-reading the web - aka. subscribing and reading to other peoples blogs.
Everytime I come across something I'm not familiar with I google it.
I'm starting to develop a browser-based game (and by this I mean text-based, no Flash or similar stuff on it) and I'm struggling to decide on which development framework to use.
As far as requirements are concerned, the most important thing that I can think of right now is the ability to translate it to several languages. A good object-relational mapping and a way to generate forms from logical objects would also be very good, as I've noticed that I always spend lots of time solving the problems that come up when I change any of those things.
The programming language is kind of unimportant. I have some experience in PHP and C#, but I don't mind, and I would even like to use this as an excuse, learning some new thing like Python or Ruby. What I do want is something with a good and thriving community and lots of samples and tutorials online to help me.
I would reccomend sticking to what you know - PHP is more than capable.
That's true of course, but:
I don't mind, and I would even like to use this as an excuse, learning some new thing like Python or Ruby.
Then writing a browser game is an excellent opportunity to do this. Learning something new is never wrong and learning an alternative to PHP can never hurt (eh, Jeff?). While neither Ruby on Rails nor Django are especially useful for writing games, they're still great. We had to write a small browser game in a matter of weeks for a project once and Rails worked charms. On the other hand, all successful browser games have enormous work loads and if you want to scale well you either have to get good hardware and load balancing or you need a non-interpreted framework (sorry, guys!).
I'd definitely suggest PHP. I've developed browser based games (pbbgs) for about 10 years now. I've tried .Net, Perl and Java.
All of them worked, but by far PHP was the best because:
Speed with which you can develop (that might be due to experience)
Ease/Cost of finding a host for a game site
Flexibility to change/revamp on the fly (game programming seems to always have a different development cycle then normal projects)
Ruby is not to bad, but the last time I tried it I rapidly ran into scaling/performance issues. I have not tried Python yet...maybe it's time to give it a shot.
Just my two cents, but over the years PHP has saved me a ton of time.
I would reccomend sticking to what you know - PHP is more than capable.
I used to play a game called Hyperiums - a text based browser game like yours - which is created using Java (it's web-based quivalent is JSP?) and servlets. It works fairly well (it has had downtime issues but those were more related to it's running on a pretty crap server).
As for which framework to use - why not create your own? Spend a good amount of time pre-coding deciding how you're going to handle various things - such as langauge support: you could use a phrase system or seperate langauge-specific templates. Third party frameworks are probably better tested than one you make but they're not created for a specific purpose, they're created for a wide range of purposes.
Check out django-mmo!